3 ms·

Their point is that empathy is a (very useful) emotional response. It doesn't give you a correct model of the other persons mind.

JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
Why can’t it be both? We have dedicated neural circuitry to mirroring others’ emotions, and pheromones that directly signal emotions between individuals.
- jjk166 6mo ago
  It just isn't both. Emotional intelligence isn't mirroring others' emotions or smelling their pheromones, it is using the mind to actually understand rationally what is going through someone else's. It's how you can know what an octopus is thinking despite not having the neural circuitry to mirror its emotions or pick up its chemical signatures.
  - hkpack 6mo ago
    I think your description would be perfect in describing a psychopath - i.e. someone who can rationalize and think about other beings logically, without actually being able to subconsciously empathize. Not all people like that at all. Some people really do feel emotions of others before being able to rationalize it.
    - jjk166 6mo ago
      No, a psychopath is someone who can't empathize. Theory of mind has nothing to do with empathy. The overwhelming majority of people are capable of both, but they are two distinct skills.
    - yetihehe 6mo ago
      > Some people really do feel emotions of others before being able to rationalize it. Yeah, they are called empaths. That's empathy. Rationalizing is another process, which can be done faster with high emotional/social intelligence. > psychopath - i.e. someone who can rationalize and think about other beings logically, without actually being able to subconsciously empathize. Exactly. Low on empathy but high on intelligence - psychopath. Low on emotional intelligence but high on empathy - empath. Low on both - unfeeling idiot. High on both - a warm kind person.
  - simondotau 6mo ago
    > It's how you can know what an octopus is thinking You mean, it’s how you can assign anthropomorphised assumptions to the octopus. There’s a world difference between having semi reliable predictive power and actually knowing something.
    - jjk166 6mo ago
      Yes, exactly how you assign those assumptions to humans despite having no way of actually knowing that they have rich internal lives comparable to your own. It is the ability to simulate a mind foreign to your own and anticipate how it would respond to circumstances.
      - simondotau 6mo ago
        We don’t have to assume with humans. We can introspect our emotions and discuss them with others. Though we can’t be precise, we can understand and distinguish concepts like shame vs humiliation which appear to be (effectively) universal to the human experience. That is a world apart from seeing an octopus react to something and assuming that anything resembling emotions are involved at all.
        jjk166 6mo ago
        > We can introspect our emotions and discuss them with others. And theory of mind is how you can know what someone is thinking without them telling you.
        simondotau 6mo ago
        Because we have prior knowledge to rely on.
        jjk166 6mo ago
        As opposed to built in neural pathways or pheromone responses.

JumpCrisscross 6mo ago

Why can’t it be both? We have dedicated neural circuitry to mirroring others’ emotions, and pheromones that directly signal emotions between individuals.

jjk166 6mo ago
It just isn't both. Emotional intelligence isn't mirroring others' emotions or smelling their pheromones, it is using the mind to actually understand rationally what is going through someone else's. It's how you can know what an octopus is thinking despite not having the neural circuitry to mirror its emotions or pick up its chemical signatures.
- hkpack 6mo ago
  I think your description would be perfect in describing a psychopath - i.e. someone who can rationalize and think about other beings logically, without actually being able to subconsciously empathize. Not all people like that at all. Some people really do feel emotions of others before being able to rationalize it.
  - jjk166 6mo ago
    No, a psychopath is someone who can't empathize. Theory of mind has nothing to do with empathy. The overwhelming majority of people are capable of both, but they are two distinct skills.
  - yetihehe 6mo ago
    > Some people really do feel emotions of others before being able to rationalize it. Yeah, they are called empaths. That's empathy. Rationalizing is another process, which can be done faster with high emotional/social intelligence. > psychopath - i.e. someone who can rationalize and think about other beings logically, without actually being able to subconsciously empathize. Exactly. Low on empathy but high on intelligence - psychopath. Low on emotional intelligence but high on empathy - empath. Low on both - unfeeling idiot. High on both - a warm kind person.
- simondotau 6mo ago
  > It's how you can know what an octopus is thinking You mean, it’s how you can assign anthropomorphised assumptions to the octopus. There’s a world difference between having semi reliable predictive power and actually knowing something.
  - jjk166 6mo ago
    Yes, exactly how you assign those assumptions to humans despite having no way of actually knowing that they have rich internal lives comparable to your own. It is the ability to simulate a mind foreign to your own and anticipate how it would respond to circumstances.
    - simondotau 6mo ago
      We don’t have to assume with humans. We can introspect our emotions and discuss them with others. Though we can’t be precise, we can understand and distinguish concepts like shame vs humiliation which appear to be (effectively) universal to the human experience. That is a world apart from seeing an octopus react to something and assuming that anything resembling emotions are involved at all.
      - jjk166 6mo ago
        > We can introspect our emotions and discuss them with others. And theory of mind is how you can know what someone is thinking without them telling you.
        simondotau 6mo ago
        Because we have prior knowledge to rely on.
        jjk166 6mo ago
        As opposed to built in neural pathways or pheromone responses.