4 ms·

That's not new. I read a UI book in the early 2000s that cited research showing that most users didn't understand filesystems. They would seem to, but then the

by btilly 6mo ago

That's not new. I read a UI book in the early 2000s that cited research showing that most users didn't understand filesystems. They would seem to, but then the idea that the same filename in two places was two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block. Those who got it, didn't find it hard. It's just that some people can't get it. The disconnect is not between some developers, and the younger folks. It is between some developers, and most of the world.

technojamin 6mo ago
I think that's perfectly understandable. File systems require the user to remember a hierarchy in their head (even if there are tools like breadcrumbs to help you out), and many people aren't willing or aren't able to hold an arbitrarily complex structure like that in their head. A name is a flat piece of information, no extra structure to imagine.
- mysterydip 6mo ago
  I worked with a professor one time that used floppies for all his files (after they had been surpassed by thumbdrives) because each floppy was essentially a single folder, and he could wrap his head around that conceptually.
- dariosalvi78 6mo ago
  it's not complicated at all, it's how operating systems present them to the users.
nkrisc 6mo ago
I think a lot more people than most HN readers realize simply struggle significantly with abstract thinking and reasoning. It's natural that people who enjoy programming and hacking and related fields are very comfortable with such abstract types of thought. But I really think that isn't all that common amongst most people. I think the average person has to learn such thinking abilities with difficulty (though they can). I'm sure many people here got into programming precisely because abstract thinking came easily to them. > the idea that the same filename in two places was two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block. Which is actually why the "files and folders" metaphor is apt. In a filing cabinet in a school office (once upon a time) there were likely hundreds of documents labeled "Report Card" in many different folders, each labeled with a different name.
- KellyCriterion 6mo ago
  > I'm sure many people here got into programming precisely because abstract thinking came easily to them. Counter here: When I wanted to switch from TurboPascal during school (14y/15y) to C++ (because it was "more cool" and that was the tool that the 'big boy' game-dev-pros were, we thought), it was so damn hard for me - really! I was struggling so massivly, I head massive problems with this pointer stuff - it took me years to fully understand it. And I was hell-bad at math in school (or maybe just too lazy), the only thing to which I a relation was all this geometric stuff (because this was needed for .. game dev! :-D )
  - Zak 6mo ago
    Pointers are famously difficult to learn and reason about even though the basic principles are simple. Programming in a style that requires direct manipulation of pointers when it's not actually necessary is usually regarded as unwise because it's so hard to get right.
    - mhjkl 6mo ago
      OP had no problem with pointers prior to trying C++. I think there is a case to be made that C(++) makes pointers unnecessarily confusing and there is no real disconnect between understanding pointers in theory and in practice otherwise
      - joquarky 6mo ago
        And C++ makes everything extra confusing with the capability of operator overloading. That has to be one of the worst features ever added to a language.
        avadodin 6mo ago
        > C++ makes everything extra confusing
      - NooneAtAll3 6mo ago
KellyCriterion 6mo ago
> two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block Because in the analog world, each "document has usually a single/unique headline" and file names are often perceived as some type of unique identifier as well, Id guess? > It is between some developers, and most of the world. sigh
bryankaplan 6mo ago
Did they also struggle to understand that some people have the same name yet are not the same person?
- quesera 6mo ago
  In the time it took you to write this comment, you've thought more about the abstraction than most of the people who are confused by it -- and it will never succeed to coax them out of their confusion with such logic. :)
- moring 6mo ago
  By that logic, operating system developers struggle to understand that putting two files with the same name into the same folder(1) is very much possible in the physical world. (1) or referencing them from the same directory, which was the earlier metaphor.
  - bryankaplan 6mo ago
    Hardly. That would be analogous to two people having the same name _and_ the same spacetime coordinates; they would indeed be the same person.
    - direwolf20 6mo ago
      But why are filenames equated with spacetime coordinates? That doesn't make any sense - reflect on why you leaped to that analogy. The spacetime coordinates are the disk ID and sector number. We've been using operating systems that work a certain way for so long that we think filenames are like spacetime coordinates.
      - bryankaplan 6mo ago
        The analogy is location. file : directory :: person : geocoordinates. I thought it was a straight-forward analogy, but clearly I was mistaken.
    - 6mo ago
dingaling 6mo ago
I can't blame them. We've been force-upgraded to Windows 11 at work and that OS and its apps do their upmost to obscure where files are located. I've frequently saved on OneDrive instead of locally, by accident, and then been perplexed when I try to reopen the file later. And I've been using filesystems for 35+ years, so I feel sympathy for those who don't understand the abstraction. At this point Android is more transparent about its files.
- array_key_first 6mo ago
  > We've been force-upgraded to Windows 11 at work and that OS and its apps do their upmost to obscure where files are located. That's because there's research that users don't understand filesystems. So then stupid companies who make bad decisions like Microsoft and Apple decide that that means they should pretend filesystems don't exist.
  - account42 6mo ago
    More like Microsoft has incentives to push people towards their cloud storage. If there were studies involved in these changes they are just excuses for things that were already decided without them.

by btilly 6mo ago

technojamin 6mo ago

I think that's perfectly understandable. File systems require the user to remember a hierarchy in their head (even if there are tools like breadcrumbs to help you out), and many people aren't willing or aren't able to hold an arbitrarily complex structure like that in their head. A name is a flat piece of information, no extra structure to imagine.

mysterydip 6mo ago
I worked with a professor one time that used floppies for all his files (after they had been surpassed by thumbdrives) because each floppy was essentially a single folder, and he could wrap his head around that conceptually.
dariosalvi78 6mo ago
it's not complicated at all, it's how operating systems present them to the users.

nkrisc 6mo ago

I think a lot more people than most HN readers realize simply struggle significantly with abstract thinking and reasoning. It's natural that people who enjoy programming and hacking and related fields are very comfortable with such abstract types of thought. But I really think that isn't all that common amongst most people. I think the average person has to learn such thinking abilities with difficulty (though they can). I'm sure many people here got into programming precisely because abstract thinking came easily to them. > the idea that the same filename in two places was two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block. Which is actually why the "files and folders" metaphor is apt. In a filing cabinet in a school office (once upon a time) there were likely hundreds of documents labeled "Report Card" in many different folders, each labeled with a different name.

KellyCriterion 6mo ago
> I'm sure many people here got into programming precisely because abstract thinking came easily to them. Counter here: When I wanted to switch from TurboPascal during school (14y/15y) to C++ (because it was "more cool" and that was the tool that the 'big boy' game-dev-pros were, we thought), it was so damn hard for me - really! I was struggling so massivly, I head massive problems with this pointer stuff - it took me years to fully understand it. And I was hell-bad at math in school (or maybe just too lazy), the only thing to which I a relation was all this geometric stuff (because this was needed for .. game dev! :-D )
- Zak 6mo ago
  Pointers are famously difficult to learn and reason about even though the basic principles are simple. Programming in a style that requires direct manipulation of pointers when it's not actually necessary is usually regarded as unwise because it's so hard to get right.
  - mhjkl 6mo ago
    OP had no problem with pointers prior to trying C++. I think there is a case to be made that C(++) makes pointers unnecessarily confusing and there is no real disconnect between understanding pointers in theory and in practice otherwise
    - joquarky 6mo ago
      And C++ makes everything extra confusing with the capability of operator overloading. That has to be one of the worst features ever added to a language.
      - avadodin 6mo ago
        > C++ makes everything extra confusing
    - NooneAtAll3 6mo ago

KellyCriterion 6mo ago

> two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block Because in the analog world, each "document has usually a single/unique headline" and file names are often perceived as some type of unique identifier as well, Id guess? > It is between some developers, and most of the world. sigh

bryankaplan 6mo ago

Did they also struggle to understand that some people have the same name yet are not the same person?

quesera 6mo ago
In the time it took you to write this comment, you've thought more about the abstraction than most of the people who are confused by it -- and it will never succeed to coax them out of their confusion with such logic. :)
moring 6mo ago
By that logic, operating system developers struggle to understand that putting two files with the same name into the same folder(1) is very much possible in the physical world. (1) or referencing them from the same directory, which was the earlier metaphor.
- bryankaplan 6mo ago
  Hardly. That would be analogous to two people having the same name _and_ the same spacetime coordinates; they would indeed be the same person.
  - direwolf20 6mo ago
    But why are filenames equated with spacetime coordinates? That doesn't make any sense - reflect on why you leaped to that analogy. The spacetime coordinates are the disk ID and sector number. We've been using operating systems that work a certain way for so long that we think filenames are like spacetime coordinates.
    - bryankaplan 6mo ago
      The analogy is location. file : directory :: person : geocoordinates. I thought it was a straight-forward analogy, but clearly I was mistaken.
  - 6mo ago

dingaling 6mo ago

I can't blame them. We've been force-upgraded to Windows 11 at work and that OS and its apps do their upmost to obscure where files are located. I've frequently saved on OneDrive instead of locally, by accident, and then been perplexed when I try to reopen the file later. And I've been using filesystems for 35+ years, so I feel sympathy for those who don't understand the abstraction. At this point Android is more transparent about its files.

array_key_first 6mo ago
> We've been force-upgraded to Windows 11 at work and that OS and its apps do their upmost to obscure where files are located. That's because there's research that users don't understand filesystems. So then stupid companies who make bad decisions like Microsoft and Apple decide that that means they should pretend filesystems don't exist.
- account42 6mo ago
  More like Microsoft has incentives to push people towards their cloud storage. If there were studies involved in these changes they are just excuses for things that were already decided without them.