11 ms·

What most people dont get: Most of folks on HN here are much older than todays "first customers" of 16y/17/18 For them: The "Smartphone is the internet", whil

What most people dont get: Most of folks on HN here are much older than todays "first customers" of 16y/17/18 For them: The "Smartphone is the internet", while for most of us the "Smartphone is an extension of the internet from our desktops" that we were used to (remember the years before dot com bubble, saying: "I will be down in the basement at the computer to surf on the net little bit" ? :-) But today, the very first touchpoint with "the internet" for younger folks is a smartphone display. The even do homework on this small screens! Companies are seeing this switch, so they adapt. Personally, a service which is "only an app" will be not used by me as I prefer to have a larger screen with more information (actually I use my mobile phone only when Im in public transport or similar, at home I have a notebook laying around if I need something)

karimf 6mo ago
This. I posted this on my other comment, but there's a meme that "Gen Z Kids Don't Understand How File Systems Work" [0]. There seems to be a disconnect between some developers and the younger folks. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30253526 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30253526
- mghackerlady 6mo ago
  I can say for certain this is true. People my age look at me like I have 3 heads if I ask them to do anything more complex than open a web browser
  - quaintdev 6mo ago
    I'm in India, people give me same looks when I ask them to open browser. Internet to my parents and other old folks is YouTube and WhatsApp
    - FabHK 6mo ago
      Famously, there were surveys where people said they used Facebook, but didn't use the internet... https://qz.com/333313/milliions-of-facebook-users-have-no-idea-theyre-using-the-internet https://qz.com/333313/milliions-of-facebook-users-have-no-id...
- Imustaskforhelp 6mo ago
  (17 yo here), I think that I am eternally grateful to my cousins who convinced my parents to give me a desktop computer which is still working right now (it had a minor hiccup in the processor recently but it works), before that, I was having a 1 gb crt monitor win7 on which I somehow ran Vscode smoothly. I am very frugal (to save money on webcam, in online classes, I had droidcam /wo-mic setup with one of my parents old phones that were so old that online classes couldn't work or were just too slow) but spending money on a decent personal computer is genuinely one of the best investments personally. One thing my cousins did which I am sorta grateful in retrospect is they didn't buy me a gpu so my computer was really nice/smooth in everything but gaming, I still ran some games like portal series , inscryption and many other games like valorant and it was playing valorant when I started realizing its chinese company roots and kernel level access meaning that there was no proper way to guarantee to have piece of mind unless I reinstall it So I felt like if I was reinstalling, I was watching some the linux experiments video anyway and was fascinated by linux, so I just decided to choose myself to use nobara-linux for the first time which was another one of the best decisions that I made as it opened me up to the terminal.
  - KellyCriterion 6mo ago
    > grateful in retrospect is they didn't buy me a gpu Great sentence! I will apply this to my kids as well, I guess. I always tell them already: "In the future, you can game as much as you want, IF you learn a good programming language [which will be defined by me]" - let me see how this will work out in 1-2 years :-D
    - Imustaskforhelp 6mo ago
      The first thing that my brothers did when I had the computer was firstly change the wallpaper to a good mountain wallpaper, installed vscode and asked me to program a python program to reverse print in python so print 10 9 8 7.. 1 each in new line (iirc) [I was in 8th grade] then they asked me to square while reverse printing or something too. so printing 100 81 64 .. 1 each in new line. > let me see how this will work out in 1-2 years :-D Keep me updated haha! To be honest, I will admit though that I am not the greatest within coding itself right now as much as I love tinkering with open source. Personally I am wishing to learn coding with better interest when I get into college, I will have 4 years to learn peacefully (well hopefully if I get into decent college ie) :D For me the challenge after using Linux was that I wanted to use archlinux because my brother (not cousin, real), flexed me his iirc distrotube archlinux once when we were eating something and I thus always considered arch to be the final boss of Linux lol and so I decided to install it and then I fell in love with arch (currently on cachy on desktop, but right now on mac which my brother gifted me :D) On my birthday iirc once long time ago I think in 5-6th not sure, my brother gave me his laptop, I wanted to do python but python wanted admin password on windows to install properly. So what I did was I dont even remember how, but download one operating system which could then crack the windows password so that I can set new and I used that to then set a new password to then install python. to then only print hello world :D (I think only because one of the cousins I really admire mentioned that he made 2k loc of python once and I thought during that time, python is the endgame). We are talking about windows 7 but I think that windows 10 security must've gotten better. So these are some things that I have done, I wouldn't call it coding as much as tinkering but I love doing these things from as long as I can remember :D I think this all started because I tried pirating pokemon-yellow so that I can play it. My brother just said to me google it, or told me the word rom and asked me to figure it out and I was in 2nd or 3rd grade maybe 4th grade lol and I pirated it (Hope nintendo doesn't sue me now xD) Sorry for making this long but your comment somehow made me remember somethings that I had forgot/weren't touched in a long time xD! I think the main takeaway is that I just treated all of these as challenges I guess, like I wanted to prove myself that I can do that or if a thing is possible/not. I haven't done too much coding myself so I just say that I am tinkerer :D I hope that this can be helpful to you to teach your kids what you mention. I mean make it a challenge where if they fail, they don't feel pressure but they also feel competitive just enough to try their best as much as they can :D and I think in some sense personally I just wanted some respect/to impress my elder cousins/brothers as they were really elder/mature than me. It's also not been all good though if you are too young than most of your cousins. The thing is, I don't have any measurable advice, a lot of what I have done till now is just unquantified. Coding on the other hand is quantifiable in some sense (it works or it doesn't). I just do things because I wanted to, and I think I still do that same way. Sometimes I wish if the things that I want are something measurable but my mind doesn't work that way. The thing is, which depresses me sometimes, is that I am just a number at the end of the day to many if not all whether including in future job/business etc., nobody to whom I interview when I wish to get a job from sometime from now is going to read a lot of this and with AI and some genuine problems in the industry like too many people, this problem gets even larger, sigh. So in that sense I just want to be happy sometimes. Sorry for the long comment once again and the depressing end, but I recommend watching some cat videos though and I wish you and your kids to have a nice day! :D Say hi to them from my side!!
- btilly 6mo ago
  That's not new. I read a UI book in the early 2000s that cited research showing that most users didn't understand filesystems. They would seem to, but then the idea that the same filename in two places was two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block. Those who got it, didn't find it hard. It's just that some people can't get it. The disconnect is not between some developers, and the younger folks. It is between some developers, and most of the world.
  - technojamin 6mo ago
    I think that's perfectly understandable. File systems require the user to remember a hierarchy in their head (even if there are tools like breadcrumbs to help you out), and many people aren't willing or aren't able to hold an arbitrarily complex structure like that in their head. A name is a flat piece of information, no extra structure to imagine.
    - mysterydip 6mo ago
      I worked with a professor one time that used floppies for all his files (after they had been surpassed by thumbdrives) because each floppy was essentially a single folder, and he could wrap his head around that conceptually.
    - dariosalvi78 6mo ago
      it's not complicated at all, it's how operating systems present them to the users.
  - nkrisc 6mo ago
    I think a lot more people than most HN readers realize simply struggle significantly with abstract thinking and reasoning. It's natural that people who enjoy programming and hacking and related fields are very comfortable with such abstract types of thought. But I really think that isn't all that common amongst most people. I think the average person has to learn such thinking abilities with difficulty (though they can). I'm sure many people here got into programming precisely because abstract thinking came easily to them. > the idea that the same filename in two places was two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block. Which is actually why the "files and folders" metaphor is apt. In a filing cabinet in a school office (once upon a time) there were likely hundreds of documents labeled "Report Card" in many different folders, each labeled with a different name.
- dariosalvi78 6mo ago
  not even the older generations. My parents save files on the Whatsapp chat, and my father is one who bought the first IBM PC when it came out, so someone who has touched these things for decades (tho very superficially). I think that the software industry, especially operating systems, have completely failed to provide a balanced product between the overly bloated and messed up (Windows), the overly complicated (Linux) and the overly simplified (Android/iOS). Maybe some Linux distros are now at the right spot, I was positively surprised by PopOS to give an example, but it's too late. With AI this is only going to get worse.
  - neutronicus 6mo ago
    > My parents save files on the Whatsapp chat That's becoming dangerously true of my wife and I as well, to be honest. The friction is just so much lower than Google Drive or whatever. As long as I handle it right away. It's just finding something from more than an hour ago that's intolerable.
    - KellyCriterion 6mo ago
      I met a business partner who is doing some work for SME retail investors last week for lunch: He showed me his WhatsApp: People are sending _ALL_ type of critical documents by WhatsApp to him. Everything. (and bank statements are among the class of "less critical" documents in his case) My theory here is: "If you have any function in your product, people will use it for anything appropriate to them in a given minute"
      - sdfjkhdfjkdhs 6mo ago
        I witnessed a cop attempting to manipulate some files I provided to him on a thumb drive. It was a slow laborious process of dragging files one at a time from the Windows image viewer to shared folder. I would have liked to just do a Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V, but that was way above his level of thinking and he didn't seem like the type who wanted an education. So I just sat there through the long, painful process--and then at the end he completely screwed up the report. Idiot.
- fuzzy2 6mo ago
  No. There is a disconnect between domain insiders and those that are not. This is not specific to any one domain. It's also not about age. Some insiders know about this disconnect and fewer still can bridge it easily. Those that cannot even sense this disconnect, they're a bit of a pain in certain situations. You know, like talking to project stakeholders or customers.
  - monocasa 6mo ago
    Except pretty much the entire millennial generation knows about computer folders and files, as that was necessary information for graduating school.
- direwolf20 6mo ago
  Filesystems aren't some universal truth. They were invented at a specific moment in time for specific reasons.
th3iedkid 6mo ago
Agree. Also depends on nature of experience you want to consume/deliver. There are somethings i've slowly to come to prefer an app for, but it's been overtime.
Imustaskforhelp 6mo ago
> Most of folks on HN here are much older than todays "first customers" of 16y/17/18 17yo here, I know that I might be a bit of an exception here but atleast within my privacy conscious friend circle, I feel like they prefer websites more than apps and I feel like that plays an impact, (Obviously this might make a difference as well that for some of my generation, they only use phone so phone applications feel more intuitive to them) I used to say to my elder brother that I wish to make websites not apps if I do because websites are more portable etc., but he said that websites are hard to monetize etc. rather than apps which are easier to monetize. I think that one of the reasons is also that app are easily monetized and this has become a norm to many people outside of HN/privacy-conscious sphere in general. I really wanted to make f-droid applications sometime ago but I don't know Java and I really love how easy it is to make an applicaation in golang/python/any lang in desktops usually but I tried making an tauri android rust application from my desktop Linux and it was really frustrating, I feel like there are some very low hanging fruits privacy win where open source tools can be converted into just bare minimum-ly good UI/UX android/ios apps (which works) and be published to something like f-droid.
- KellyCriterion 6mo ago
  > I feel like they prefer websites more than apps The fact that you are here on HN tells me: You and your friends are tech savy, most in your age are not :-) Edit: Regarding monetization -> yes, either carrier billing (if available) or just by iTunes account is much much easier and higher conversion, just becaues of the fact that people do not have to remember their payment details :-D
  - Imustaskforhelp 6mo ago
    I mentioned privacy savvy friends because most of my friends aren't privacy savvy :D I can only count two (one offline, my former classmate/friend who we studied together for 11 years from KG to 10th grande) and some other people I have convinced my same offline friend I mentioned to use Linux, specifically hyprland so its a win :D > most in your age are not :-) So I agree in that sense. To be honest. I am saying out of all my friend/peer/former classmate circle, only 1-2 people are some that I consider to be privacy conscious.
rvz 6mo ago
PWAs were a cute experiment and they never took off, and even the vibe coders chose to vibe code native apps over half-baked PWAs. There you go.
- btown 6mo ago
  PWAs were more than an experiment - they were even mentioned in Apple keynotes (IIRC). And sandboxing was every bit as stable as website sandboxing. They were killed because app store operators realized they bypassed an ability to police payments that could not be monitored and (effectively) taxed. This was a technology that could have been successful in any environment where a merchant's freedom-to-request-direct-payment was protected. In such an environment, it would have shifted incentives that apps now become a burden on developers as well as on Apple and Google's review processes, and PWAs would flourish. But that's not the environment we were in! And arguably, even post Epic's litigation, we aren't fully.
Waterluvian 6mo ago
I saw a television advert the other day that specifically called out Millennials and how, yes, you can book a vacation from your phone and you're going to be okay, dad. I think, "I'm not downloading your app" is of course a perfectly fine perspective. I rarely do. And blogging about it is playing one's role in the techno-cultural tug-of-war. But I'm consciously aware that I'm in the dying minority and the world is changing regardless of how much I choose to yell at the clouds.
- KellyCriterion 6mo ago
  Sure, I can book on the smartphone! But its super uncomfortable! :-) And: Typing - I learnt in school to type perfectly with 10 fingers, on a smartphone only using my thumb is just too slow
  - Waterluvian 6mo ago
    Right?! How can I cross reference things and check deals and copy paste to my spreadsheet on a phone! I feel like you can do these things but I’m very skeptical that people aren’t worse off by doing it on a phone (when they have the choice)
- BYazfVCcq 6mo ago
  >I saw a television advert the other day that specifically called out Millennials and how, yes, you can book a vacation from your phone and you're going to be okay, dad. I wonder when dynamic pricing will switch from booking on phones being more expensive because you're most likely in a hurry to booking on desktop being more expensive because you're old and have more money to spend. Did that already happen?
Aperocky 6mo ago
I am spoiled by big screen and tmux, I objectively cannot work with small screens any more. I can tolerate chatting with a gateway agent, but that only last for maybe a single hour before I seriously need to vet all of the work that it and the underlying horde of agents has done.
jliptzin 6mo ago
I still remember when everyone was saying the only way to access a service would be through its AOL keyword. There is still no better interface than the command line.
socalgal2 6mo ago
I’d be happy to use the app if they didn’t suck. The websites have more info and the browser is more capable by default. Like by default I can select any text I see, an address to copy into a calendar, a phone number to send to someone else, a name I want to paste into a search engine. an app is the opposite, by default nothing is selectable and I’m at the mercy of the nearly universally bad UX designer’s whims
SunshineTheCat 6mo ago
This hit the nail on the head. I find much of the HN community insightful and interesting, but in terms of consumer feedback (especially in a B2C environment) I wouldn't touch feedback here with a 10-foot pole. I don't mean that to be an insult, quite the opposite. Most people here are power users. But that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet.
- KellyCriterion 6mo ago
  > that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet Exactly! Esp if you just move away "one tile" from tech/IT or business-power-users, most people are more or less clueless what they are doing/have to do with a computer. Yes, we are in a bubble here - as with every niche/special interest topic: It would be same for me if I would join a "car tuning event" or similar - Im just a car user, and I do not know of all these details and nuts & bolts
  - coffe2mug 6mo ago
    > Exactly! Esp if you just move away "one tile" from tech/IT or business-power-users, most people are more or less clueless what they are doing/have to do with a computer. I don't think so. A majority don't want to. But they are forced by geeks/nerds. Geeks/nerds often show off especially in family/friends parties with older/common folk - telling - I can do this/that. Then average CEO or parent is forced to get a smartphone. Next the geek/nerd - has no time to maintain the computer/laptop of the parent. Or loses patience explaining updates/double-click/avoid scammer installing software. Then - boom - geek son/daughter - if smart gets a decent pixel/iphone - otherwise gets a shitty Android device - installs everything there. Moves on. And finally remember it is the young same geek/nerd that will eventually do programming for FAANG/palantir etc. which forces people to install apps, degrade privacy, worsen webapp/websites - all for money.
    - array_key_first 6mo ago
      I think this is missing that older people are not stupid, and they could learn how to use software if they spent the time. Many older folks used even more complicated software in the past, and then they lost the skill or didn't keep it up to date. A lot of older people rely on yougins for tech support not because they have to, but because it's easy learned helplessness. A large part of this is ALSO software's fault, though. Software changes too quick and for no reason. Software these days lies to users, erroding confidence.
Yokohiii 6mo ago
The generation conflict doesn't justify to permanently bug me with "install our app, it's awesome". It ends up with terrible UX.
nkrisc 6mo ago
> But today, the very first touchpoint with "the internet" for younger folks is a smartphone display. The even do homework on this small screens! I saw a tweet recently that perfectly encapsulates this: for most people over 30, certain things are "big screen tasks". I use my phone for a lot, but for some things I put the phone down and use my computer instead. I am most comfortable using a large screen and a keyboard for anything that requires writing more than a few words or using any interface for more than a few clicks. For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply. I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard. Honestly I think Apple perfectly captured it with their "what's a computer?" ad for the iPad. I seem to remember them getting some flak online for it but I think they were right on the money with regards to the younger generations.
- KellyCriterion 6mo ago
  > For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply. Thanks for the honor! :) Sometimes I even copy links from here and send them by mail to myself so I can reply later - maybe Im getting tooo old? :-D (on the iPhone I would store it in a simple textnote)
- kaladin-jasnah 6mo ago
  > I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard. For college aged kids, most people are definitely not doing their homework on their phone. Many are still using paper and pencil. The one person I know who did do their homework on their phone tried to evangelize it to their friends and got ridiculed for it.
  - technothrasher 6mo ago
    I just asked my college aged kid. He said pretty much everyone does their written homework on their laptop, but many will use their phones to do the reading.
bartilg 6mo ago
Even on mobile I find the requirement for app installation to be an irritating requirement. Many of these mobile apps are much larger than they need to be, and clutter the user experience. Throw in excessive push notifications, and in many cases I would like to just go to a website for services I use infrequently.
- InitialLastName 6mo ago
  Seriously, push notifications, requests to review the app, gratuitous permissions, ads that bypass my ad-blocker. Why would I want to do this?
johannes1234321 6mo ago
This is true and goes further: There is no understanding of "the Web." For folks who "went online" and "surfed on the Internet" in the 90ies the whole thing with Internet addresses and the way a browser works are normal. For people gaining their experience on a phone the app icon on the home screen is the starting point to the individual offering. Companies however exploit that and instead of just putting the icon on the home screen provide an app which allows more tracking, preventing ad blockers, avoiding the user from browsing elsewhere. For me apps are limiting (tabbed browsing, ad blocker, ... are essential for anything serious), but others don't have that experience.
scorpionfeet 6mo ago
My company corporate card requires an app because it has an Authenticator to access the website. I tried the ole “but I only have a flip phone” and they said there was no other option. The bastards forced my hand.
- neuronflux 6mo ago
  So they issued you a company provided phone for this work specific functionality?
  - caminante 6mo ago
    You haven't confirmed WHY they have a flip phone. If you're using a flip phone in this day and age, then it's not about the money.
  - scorpionfeet 6mo ago
    YES! Immense waste of money. But I’m one out of hundreds that avoided a corporate iPhone for years. I hate it.
- graemep 6mo ago
  There are authenticator extensions for web browsers.
  - scorpionfeet 6mo ago
    Unapproved by the company.
    - graemep 6mo ago
      So its their device you are using? otherwise how to they know what authenticator you are using? Most use the same standard.
      - integralid 6mo ago
        Except Microsoft Authenticator. That's what my company uses and this is the only reason I ever use my work phone.
Zak 6mo ago
Phones are perfectly capable of accessing websites. I think a lot of the shift here has to do with companies aggressively pushing apps because apps are more profitable, which in turn trains users to expect apps.
- KellyCriterion 6mo ago
  Sorry, there are by faaaar not as much useable mobile websites than crappy mobile websites - most mobile websites are not really optimized, more like "just let us deploy some custome mobile CSS and people will use it" style
  - variaga 6mo ago
    Companies with poor quality mobile websites also usually have poor quality apps. The website can be objectively bad, but still better than the app experience.
vanviegen 6mo ago
I'm not sure about that. Kids around here seem to be learning to use a word processor (MS or Google), slide builder (MS, Google or Canva), search engine, as well as many educative apps on laptops at school starting from about age 8. Computers are not alien to them.
mint5 6mo ago
Wrong. While I agree about younger people’s impression and experience with apps and the internet, that is not what companies are responding to - in fact it’s backward. Companies have for ages pushed apps due to more control and data. That’s why younger folk grew up with apps. The push to apps was absolutely not due to companies responding to consumer sentiment. Yes now it has been ingrained so now there are expectations, but those are due to companies pushing people to apps for years and years
- ChrisMarshallNY 6mo ago
  Apps generally have a lot more access to the user info than Web sites. I remember getting into an argument, here (one-sided, I didn't argue then, and I won't now), about how a Web site is just as intrusive and privacy-endangering as an app (I think they wrote PWAs, and didn't want to cede the point to native apps). I feel they were wrong. Apps can get more information than web sites; even with sandboxing. In my experience, apps can figure out a lot more about the user, than a Web site. I just reported a game to Apple, that, after the app has been resident for 24 hours, pops up an unescapable modal to sign into their Web site. I am sure the 24-hour delay, is so they don't get caught by the App Store folks. I suspect that what happens, during this "daily checkin," is that the app sends a bunch of encrypted data that it got from your device, to the servers in China. Basically, they can learn more about you from the app, than from the Web site. I generally avoid apps, where the Web site will do. I won't install banking apps, at all.
  - senordevnyc 6mo ago
    I suspect that what happens, during this "daily checkin," is that the app sends a bunch of encrypted data that it got from your device, to the servers in China. What information do you think they got from your device other than what you gave them permission to have? If you actually have any info on how apps can break Apple's sandbox to leak your personal info, you should share it.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 6mo ago
      Yeah, it's OK. I said that I wouldn't argue, and I'm sticking to that. Have a great day!
ranit 6mo ago
> What most people dont get ... The OP Blog post is comparing web versions vs applications. Both on the phone. And arguing that browser representation is often better than app functionality. Using desktop vs small screen phone is a different matter.
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moron4hire 6mo ago
"The grandmas are too stupid to learn" but now it's the young people who are too dumb to figure out computers. So, I guess my generation is the only one that will ever figure out the Internet? Seems dumb.
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8note 6mo ago
this where i think any claims that an iphone is not a full computing experience as justification for disallowing freedom on it to build and run your own software as you see fit as a bit ridiculous.
CivBase 6mo ago
You're right... but I think you have incorrectly conflated "web" with "desktop". Websites work perfectly fine on smartphones when they are designed to do so. I'm using HN on my phone's web browser right now to type this comment. I don't need an app for HN. I don't have many apps on my phone because I've found I simply don't need them. There are basically only two cases where I use apps: 1. When I want push notifications 2. When I want to use local files
- tosti 6mo ago
  If Android, try going into accessibility settings and set display size to maximum. Then see if you still like HN and many other websites with shitty unresponsive CSS.
  - CivBase 6mo ago
    Why would I do that?
    - tosti 6mo ago
      IDK. In my case, instructions are much more readable in osmand while driving. Better readability is kinda the whole reason why such a setting exists. I certainly hope I'm not the only one trying to break my own work by adjusting a11y settings in the os. Computers are meant to support people, not the other way around.
izacus 6mo ago
That's an interesting mindset, since those 30+ tech savvy millennials are the ones that actually still have some money to spend left on apps and similar crap.
foobarian 6mo ago
It's worth mentioning that in many cases there is also the incentive to get away from Google's stranglehold on incoming traffic. Every app install is a path to your product that does not go through Google's SEO or SEM funnel.
dlcarrier 6mo ago
I don't see any evidence that is a user-driven change. For years now, often multiple times with the save vendor, I've been installing some vendors software, using it to complete a purchase that I had started in a web interface, then uninstalling the software, all so I could take advantage of ann unrealistically good promotion. I'm not talking about the type of savings that might be in an exceptionally good holiday promotion, that eats into most of, if not all of, the margin in the transaction. I'm talking about the type of promotion that would be used to promote a credit card, banking account, or gambling platform-- the kind of promotion that costs months worth of income from a customer but is worthwhile because the customer will be milked for years to come. This appears to be more related to modern security features that lock the vendor out of your computer, but lock you out of your phone, shifting which interface gives the vendor the advantage in future transactions.
nitwit005 6mo ago
Young people are the ones who claim they are most likely to abandon a purchase if they have to install an app: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/02/15/91-of-us-hate-being-forced-to-install-apps-to-do-business-costing-brands-billions/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/02/15/91-of-u...
jaredsohn 6mo ago
One thing that is useful to remember is that if you ask AI for help on using some app, it will likely refer to the mobile UI instead of the web UI. I find it annoying that sometimes there are features that are only available in the mobile UI.
HumblyTossed 6mo ago
I'm old. I use my phone for as much as I can, but if something isn't optimized for that screen, i will definitely use a large screen instead of suffering through the crap. As I said, I'm old - too old to be frustrated by shit software. Also, I prefer web apps to downloading native, with few exceptions. I don't want or need a lot of native apps.
dfxm12 6mo ago
I think what most people don't get is that an app is a gateway to get way more personal data of the user than the browser. I'm distrustful of any "app only" service for this reason. I think the article goes into more detail about other good reasons. What you're suggesting isn't a talking point because it's not pertinent. This isn't about a user's age, or mobiles. You can use Firefox on your smartphone. It's about digital literacy in terms of security and privacy. No matter how old you are, you do have to be taught that you're the product of these services, not just the customer. You have to be taught why that matters and how to combat it.
jmull 6mo ago
> Companies are seeing this switch, so they adapt. You’re confusing cause and effect here. Companies are pushing apps very hard because it gives them a lot more ability to wield their various revenue enhancing dark patterns. That kids see apps as the primary option is a corporate success metric, not an organic choice. Anyway, the premise that “phone screen ==> native app not web app” is rather faulty, is it not?
- Klonoar 6mo ago
  They’re not confusing anything, you’re just sticking your head in the sand. The modern entry path to “computing” is small screen devices (phones). Their point of newcomers not having our same entry path is accurate. This is organic, however much we don’t like it. Anything past that is just market skating where the puck is.
  - aziaziazi 6mo ago
    I think they mean that a webapp is necessary desktop-first. Many websites/webapps are mobile-first. It resonate with me as I’m used to try new services on a (mobile) browser if available and switch to an app only if necessary. > the premise that “phone screen ==> native app not web app” is rather faulty, is it not?
  - array_key_first 6mo ago
    Okay but that's not what he's arguing, you're missing the point. There's nothing stopping a website from being usable on a smartphone. In fact, almost all of these apps are just websites in disguise! They use web views to render. The reason it's an app and not a website isn't because apps are better for smartphones. It's because apps are native code running. It's also a choice that websites cannot present as apps (PWAs). Apple and Google purposefully did that so they can push users to apps instead of websites, for data farming purposes.
  - jmull 6mo ago
    We're talking about web app vs native app here, not big screen vs small screen. Obviously, you can have either kind of app on either size of screen, so small screen first doesn't mean native apps. It's enshitification that's driving native adoption, not small screens.
ssl-3 6mo ago
Yes, people (including the olds like myself) have been gravitating away from using a PC for everyday tasks and towards things like pocket supercomputers, and people new to the world definitely start with phones these days. Phones are similar to PCs, in that both kinds of devices have quite capable web browsers and can also run purpose-built software. But if the question in the context of a phone is app-vs-web, then the analog on a PC is program-vs-web. Which is interesting, I think. Someone might download an app on their phone to accomplish a specific task instead of use a browser on that same phone, and that trend seems to be increasingly in favor of dedicated apps. But on the PC side, it appears to be going the other way: Prior to the introduction of things like Sir Tim Berners-Lee's WWW and ubiquitous always-on Internet, most tasks on a PC were done with dedicated, local programs. That has changed. Nowadays, we have things like whole office suites (pick any of them) and featureful CAD systems (like Onshape) that run quite well within a browser. POP and IMAP used to rule the day, and now we use Gmail in a browser. So on the PC, the longer trend seems to be more in favor of platform-independent web-based things instead of dedicated programs. So, it seems that the two market segments -- while functionally similar -- are moving in opposite directions. (I don't have an axe to grind here. I just think it's fun to think about these things.)
wolfi1 6mo ago
> Companies are seeing this switch, so they adapt. I guess they see more the possibilities of getting more data on their customers and even selling their data to others
neonstatic 6mo ago
> For them: The "Smartphone is the internet", while for most of us the "Smartphone is an extension of the internet from our desktops" that we were used to Yes! My zoomer girlfriend tuned her phone to be work ready. Unless she has to, she'd be working on the phone. I would never do that. To me the phone is uncomfortable. To her, it's the small, comfortable thing she knows better than the computer.
chrneu 6mo ago
a few years ago I stopped using social media to interact with fans. One thing I realized is that no matter how i use my blog to present a story, 90% of users simply dont interact with content in a meaningful way. The reason I mention social media is all the apps operate the same way: the user swipes up or down, left or right, double taps and moves on. A website or blog or interactive content requires interaction, it requires thinking, it requires the possibility of a mistake. Those things make most users never click more than once on a website. Once a website goes beyond the first page most users leave. It's really weird how folks are conditioned to do the least amount of effort in everything and then we complain when things are confusing. Convenience is a disease.
grishka 6mo ago
Is there something we can do to undo this change?
kazinator 6mo ago
This is about preferring the web version of the product from a mobile browser vs. the app on a mobile device, not desktop vs. mobile.
sumanep 6mo ago
I use a phone just for whatsapp and sometimes take a pic. Computer for everything else
rivalout 6mo ago
[dead]
Olshansky 6mo ago
I've never found a Hacker News comment this insightful. Ty.
3form 6mo ago
Plus the corollary, which I think is something that many here, including myself, struggle with - we are not important.
samrus 6mo ago
Thats a reason for the clients to be mobile first, but not why it meeds to be an app. It can be the movile version of the website too. Itll be less code manage that way too. Why dont companies just focus on mobile web?

karimf 6mo ago

This. I posted this on my other comment, but there's a meme that "Gen Z Kids Don't Understand How File Systems Work" [0]. There seems to be a disconnect between some developers and the younger folks. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30253526 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30253526

mghackerlady 6mo ago
I can say for certain this is true. People my age look at me like I have 3 heads if I ask them to do anything more complex than open a web browser
- quaintdev 6mo ago
  I'm in India, people give me same looks when I ask them to open browser. Internet to my parents and other old folks is YouTube and WhatsApp
  - FabHK 6mo ago
    Famously, there were surveys where people said they used Facebook, but didn't use the internet... https://qz.com/333313/milliions-of-facebook-users-have-no-idea-theyre-using-the-internet https://qz.com/333313/milliions-of-facebook-users-have-no-id...
Imustaskforhelp 6mo ago
(17 yo here), I think that I am eternally grateful to my cousins who convinced my parents to give me a desktop computer which is still working right now (it had a minor hiccup in the processor recently but it works), before that, I was having a 1 gb crt monitor win7 on which I somehow ran Vscode smoothly. I am very frugal (to save money on webcam, in online classes, I had droidcam /wo-mic setup with one of my parents old phones that were so old that online classes couldn't work or were just too slow) but spending money on a decent personal computer is genuinely one of the best investments personally. One thing my cousins did which I am sorta grateful in retrospect is they didn't buy me a gpu so my computer was really nice/smooth in everything but gaming, I still ran some games like portal series , inscryption and many other games like valorant and it was playing valorant when I started realizing its chinese company roots and kernel level access meaning that there was no proper way to guarantee to have piece of mind unless I reinstall it So I felt like if I was reinstalling, I was watching some the linux experiments video anyway and was fascinated by linux, so I just decided to choose myself to use nobara-linux for the first time which was another one of the best decisions that I made as it opened me up to the terminal.
- KellyCriterion 6mo ago
  > grateful in retrospect is they didn't buy me a gpu Great sentence! I will apply this to my kids as well, I guess. I always tell them already: "In the future, you can game as much as you want, IF you learn a good programming language [which will be defined by me]" - let me see how this will work out in 1-2 years :-D
  - Imustaskforhelp 6mo ago
    The first thing that my brothers did when I had the computer was firstly change the wallpaper to a good mountain wallpaper, installed vscode and asked me to program a python program to reverse print in python so print 10 9 8 7.. 1 each in new line (iirc) [I was in 8th grade] then they asked me to square while reverse printing or something too. so printing 100 81 64 .. 1 each in new line. > let me see how this will work out in 1-2 years :-D Keep me updated haha! To be honest, I will admit though that I am not the greatest within coding itself right now as much as I love tinkering with open source. Personally I am wishing to learn coding with better interest when I get into college, I will have 4 years to learn peacefully (well hopefully if I get into decent college ie) :D For me the challenge after using Linux was that I wanted to use archlinux because my brother (not cousin, real), flexed me his iirc distrotube archlinux once when we were eating something and I thus always considered arch to be the final boss of Linux lol and so I decided to install it and then I fell in love with arch (currently on cachy on desktop, but right now on mac which my brother gifted me :D) On my birthday iirc once long time ago I think in 5-6th not sure, my brother gave me his laptop, I wanted to do python but python wanted admin password on windows to install properly. So what I did was I dont even remember how, but download one operating system which could then crack the windows password so that I can set new and I used that to then set a new password to then install python. to then only print hello world :D (I think only because one of the cousins I really admire mentioned that he made 2k loc of python once and I thought during that time, python is the endgame). We are talking about windows 7 but I think that windows 10 security must've gotten better. So these are some things that I have done, I wouldn't call it coding as much as tinkering but I love doing these things from as long as I can remember :D I think this all started because I tried pirating pokemon-yellow so that I can play it. My brother just said to me google it, or told me the word rom and asked me to figure it out and I was in 2nd or 3rd grade maybe 4th grade lol and I pirated it (Hope nintendo doesn't sue me now xD) Sorry for making this long but your comment somehow made me remember somethings that I had forgot/weren't touched in a long time xD! I think the main takeaway is that I just treated all of these as challenges I guess, like I wanted to prove myself that I can do that or if a thing is possible/not. I haven't done too much coding myself so I just say that I am tinkerer :D I hope that this can be helpful to you to teach your kids what you mention. I mean make it a challenge where if they fail, they don't feel pressure but they also feel competitive just enough to try their best as much as they can :D and I think in some sense personally I just wanted some respect/to impress my elder cousins/brothers as they were really elder/mature than me. It's also not been all good though if you are too young than most of your cousins. The thing is, I don't have any measurable advice, a lot of what I have done till now is just unquantified. Coding on the other hand is quantifiable in some sense (it works or it doesn't). I just do things because I wanted to, and I think I still do that same way. Sometimes I wish if the things that I want are something measurable but my mind doesn't work that way. The thing is, which depresses me sometimes, is that I am just a number at the end of the day to many if not all whether including in future job/business etc., nobody to whom I interview when I wish to get a job from sometime from now is going to read a lot of this and with AI and some genuine problems in the industry like too many people, this problem gets even larger, sigh. So in that sense I just want to be happy sometimes. Sorry for the long comment once again and the depressing end, but I recommend watching some cat videos though and I wish you and your kids to have a nice day! :D Say hi to them from my side!!
btilly 6mo ago
That's not new. I read a UI book in the early 2000s that cited research showing that most users didn't understand filesystems. They would seem to, but then the idea that the same filename in two places was two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block. Those who got it, didn't find it hard. It's just that some people can't get it. The disconnect is not between some developers, and the younger folks. It is between some developers, and most of the world.
- technojamin 6mo ago
  I think that's perfectly understandable. File systems require the user to remember a hierarchy in their head (even if there are tools like breadcrumbs to help you out), and many people aren't willing or aren't able to hold an arbitrarily complex structure like that in their head. A name is a flat piece of information, no extra structure to imagine.
  - mysterydip 6mo ago
    I worked with a professor one time that used floppies for all his files (after they had been surpassed by thumbdrives) because each floppy was essentially a single folder, and he could wrap his head around that conceptually.
  - dariosalvi78 6mo ago
    it's not complicated at all, it's how operating systems present them to the users.
- nkrisc 6mo ago
  I think a lot more people than most HN readers realize simply struggle significantly with abstract thinking and reasoning. It's natural that people who enjoy programming and hacking and related fields are very comfortable with such abstract types of thought. But I really think that isn't all that common amongst most people. I think the average person has to learn such thinking abilities with difficulty (though they can). I'm sure many people here got into programming precisely because abstract thinking came easily to them. > the idea that the same filename in two places was two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block. Which is actually why the "files and folders" metaphor is apt. In a filing cabinet in a school office (once upon a time) there were likely hundreds of documents labeled "Report Card" in many different folders, each labeled with a different name.
dariosalvi78 6mo ago
not even the older generations. My parents save files on the Whatsapp chat, and my father is one who bought the first IBM PC when it came out, so someone who has touched these things for decades (tho very superficially). I think that the software industry, especially operating systems, have completely failed to provide a balanced product between the overly bloated and messed up (Windows), the overly complicated (Linux) and the overly simplified (Android/iOS). Maybe some Linux distros are now at the right spot, I was positively surprised by PopOS to give an example, but it's too late. With AI this is only going to get worse.
- neutronicus 6mo ago
  > My parents save files on the Whatsapp chat That's becoming dangerously true of my wife and I as well, to be honest. The friction is just so much lower than Google Drive or whatever. As long as I handle it right away. It's just finding something from more than an hour ago that's intolerable.
  - KellyCriterion 6mo ago
    I met a business partner who is doing some work for SME retail investors last week for lunch: He showed me his WhatsApp: People are sending _ALL_ type of critical documents by WhatsApp to him. Everything. (and bank statements are among the class of "less critical" documents in his case) My theory here is: "If you have any function in your product, people will use it for anything appropriate to them in a given minute"
    - sdfjkhdfjkdhs 6mo ago
      I witnessed a cop attempting to manipulate some files I provided to him on a thumb drive. It was a slow laborious process of dragging files one at a time from the Windows image viewer to shared folder. I would have liked to just do a Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V, but that was way above his level of thinking and he didn't seem like the type who wanted an education. So I just sat there through the long, painful process--and then at the end he completely screwed up the report. Idiot.
fuzzy2 6mo ago
No. There is a disconnect between domain insiders and those that are not. This is not specific to any one domain. It's also not about age. Some insiders know about this disconnect and fewer still can bridge it easily. Those that cannot even sense this disconnect, they're a bit of a pain in certain situations. You know, like talking to project stakeholders or customers.
- monocasa 6mo ago
  Except pretty much the entire millennial generation knows about computer folders and files, as that was necessary information for graduating school.
direwolf20 6mo ago
Filesystems aren't some universal truth. They were invented at a specific moment in time for specific reasons.

th3iedkid 6mo ago

Agree. Also depends on nature of experience you want to consume/deliver. There are somethings i've slowly to come to prefer an app for, but it's been overtime.

Imustaskforhelp 6mo ago

> Most of folks on HN here are much older than todays "first customers" of 16y/17/18 17yo here, I know that I might be a bit of an exception here but atleast within my privacy conscious friend circle, I feel like they prefer websites more than apps and I feel like that plays an impact, (Obviously this might make a difference as well that for some of my generation, they only use phone so phone applications feel more intuitive to them) I used to say to my elder brother that I wish to make websites not apps if I do because websites are more portable etc., but he said that websites are hard to monetize etc. rather than apps which are easier to monetize. I think that one of the reasons is also that app are easily monetized and this has become a norm to many people outside of HN/privacy-conscious sphere in general. I really wanted to make f-droid applications sometime ago but I don't know Java and I really love how easy it is to make an applicaation in golang/python/any lang in desktops usually but I tried making an tauri android rust application from my desktop Linux and it was really frustrating, I feel like there are some very low hanging fruits privacy win where open source tools can be converted into just bare minimum-ly good UI/UX android/ios apps (which works) and be published to something like f-droid.

KellyCriterion 6mo ago
> I feel like they prefer websites more than apps The fact that you are here on HN tells me: You and your friends are tech savy, most in your age are not :-) Edit: Regarding monetization -> yes, either carrier billing (if available) or just by iTunes account is much much easier and higher conversion, just becaues of the fact that people do not have to remember their payment details :-D
- Imustaskforhelp 6mo ago
  I mentioned privacy savvy friends because most of my friends aren't privacy savvy :D I can only count two (one offline, my former classmate/friend who we studied together for 11 years from KG to 10th grande) and some other people I have convinced my same offline friend I mentioned to use Linux, specifically hyprland so its a win :D > most in your age are not :-) So I agree in that sense. To be honest. I am saying out of all my friend/peer/former classmate circle, only 1-2 people are some that I consider to be privacy conscious.

rvz 6mo ago

PWAs were a cute experiment and they never took off, and even the vibe coders chose to vibe code native apps over half-baked PWAs. There you go.

btown 6mo ago
PWAs were more than an experiment - they were even mentioned in Apple keynotes (IIRC). And sandboxing was every bit as stable as website sandboxing. They were killed because app store operators realized they bypassed an ability to police payments that could not be monitored and (effectively) taxed. This was a technology that could have been successful in any environment where a merchant's freedom-to-request-direct-payment was protected. In such an environment, it would have shifted incentives that apps now become a burden on developers as well as on Apple and Google's review processes, and PWAs would flourish. But that's not the environment we were in! And arguably, even post Epic's litigation, we aren't fully.

Waterluvian 6mo ago

I saw a television advert the other day that specifically called out Millennials and how, yes, you can book a vacation from your phone and you're going to be okay, dad. I think, "I'm not downloading your app" is of course a perfectly fine perspective. I rarely do. And blogging about it is playing one's role in the techno-cultural tug-of-war. But I'm consciously aware that I'm in the dying minority and the world is changing regardless of how much I choose to yell at the clouds.

KellyCriterion 6mo ago
Sure, I can book on the smartphone! But its super uncomfortable! :-) And: Typing - I learnt in school to type perfectly with 10 fingers, on a smartphone only using my thumb is just too slow
- Waterluvian 6mo ago
  Right?! How can I cross reference things and check deals and copy paste to my spreadsheet on a phone! I feel like you can do these things but I’m very skeptical that people aren’t worse off by doing it on a phone (when they have the choice)
BYazfVCcq 6mo ago
>I saw a television advert the other day that specifically called out Millennials and how, yes, you can book a vacation from your phone and you're going to be okay, dad. I wonder when dynamic pricing will switch from booking on phones being more expensive because you're most likely in a hurry to booking on desktop being more expensive because you're old and have more money to spend. Did that already happen?

Aperocky 6mo ago

I am spoiled by big screen and tmux, I objectively cannot work with small screens any more. I can tolerate chatting with a gateway agent, but that only last for maybe a single hour before I seriously need to vet all of the work that it and the underlying horde of agents has done.

jliptzin 6mo ago

I still remember when everyone was saying the only way to access a service would be through its AOL keyword. There is still no better interface than the command line.

socalgal2 6mo ago

I’d be happy to use the app if they didn’t suck. The websites have more info and the browser is more capable by default. Like by default I can select any text I see, an address to copy into a calendar, a phone number to send to someone else, a name I want to paste into a search engine. an app is the opposite, by default nothing is selectable and I’m at the mercy of the nearly universally bad UX designer’s whims

SunshineTheCat 6mo ago

This hit the nail on the head. I find much of the HN community insightful and interesting, but in terms of consumer feedback (especially in a B2C environment) I wouldn't touch feedback here with a 10-foot pole. I don't mean that to be an insult, quite the opposite. Most people here are power users. But that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet.

KellyCriterion 6mo ago
> that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet Exactly! Esp if you just move away "one tile" from tech/IT or business-power-users, most people are more or less clueless what they are doing/have to do with a computer. Yes, we are in a bubble here - as with every niche/special interest topic: It would be same for me if I would join a "car tuning event" or similar - Im just a car user, and I do not know of all these details and nuts & bolts
- coffe2mug 6mo ago
  > Exactly! Esp if you just move away "one tile" from tech/IT or business-power-users, most people are more or less clueless what they are doing/have to do with a computer. I don't think so. A majority don't want to. But they are forced by geeks/nerds. Geeks/nerds often show off especially in family/friends parties with older/common folk - telling - I can do this/that. Then average CEO or parent is forced to get a smartphone. Next the geek/nerd - has no time to maintain the computer/laptop of the parent. Or loses patience explaining updates/double-click/avoid scammer installing software. Then - boom - geek son/daughter - if smart gets a decent pixel/iphone - otherwise gets a shitty Android device - installs everything there. Moves on. And finally remember it is the young same geek/nerd that will eventually do programming for FAANG/palantir etc. which forces people to install apps, degrade privacy, worsen webapp/websites - all for money.
  - array_key_first 6mo ago
    I think this is missing that older people are not stupid, and they could learn how to use software if they spent the time. Many older folks used even more complicated software in the past, and then they lost the skill or didn't keep it up to date. A lot of older people rely on yougins for tech support not because they have to, but because it's easy learned helplessness. A large part of this is ALSO software's fault, though. Software changes too quick and for no reason. Software these days lies to users, erroding confidence.

Yokohiii 6mo ago

The generation conflict doesn't justify to permanently bug me with "install our app, it's awesome". It ends up with terrible UX.

nkrisc 6mo ago

> But today, the very first touchpoint with "the internet" for younger folks is a smartphone display. The even do homework on this small screens! I saw a tweet recently that perfectly encapsulates this: for most people over 30, certain things are "big screen tasks". I use my phone for a lot, but for some things I put the phone down and use my computer instead. I am most comfortable using a large screen and a keyboard for anything that requires writing more than a few words or using any interface for more than a few clicks. For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply. I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard. Honestly I think Apple perfectly captured it with their "what's a computer?" ad for the iPad. I seem to remember them getting some flak online for it but I think they were right on the money with regards to the younger generations.

KellyCriterion 6mo ago
> For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply. Thanks for the honor! :) Sometimes I even copy links from here and send them by mail to myself so I can reply later - maybe Im getting tooo old? :-D (on the iPhone I would store it in a simple textnote)
kaladin-jasnah 6mo ago
> I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard. For college aged kids, most people are definitely not doing their homework on their phone. Many are still using paper and pencil. The one person I know who did do their homework on their phone tried to evangelize it to their friends and got ridiculed for it.
- technothrasher 6mo ago
  I just asked my college aged kid. He said pretty much everyone does their written homework on their laptop, but many will use their phones to do the reading.

bartilg 6mo ago

Even on mobile I find the requirement for app installation to be an irritating requirement. Many of these mobile apps are much larger than they need to be, and clutter the user experience. Throw in excessive push notifications, and in many cases I would like to just go to a website for services I use infrequently.

InitialLastName 6mo ago
Seriously, push notifications, requests to review the app, gratuitous permissions, ads that bypass my ad-blocker. Why would I want to do this?

johannes1234321 6mo ago

This is true and goes further: There is no understanding of "the Web." For folks who "went online" and "surfed on the Internet" in the 90ies the whole thing with Internet addresses and the way a browser works are normal. For people gaining their experience on a phone the app icon on the home screen is the starting point to the individual offering. Companies however exploit that and instead of just putting the icon on the home screen provide an app which allows more tracking, preventing ad blockers, avoiding the user from browsing elsewhere. For me apps are limiting (tabbed browsing, ad blocker, ... are essential for anything serious), but others don't have that experience.

scorpionfeet 6mo ago

My company corporate card requires an app because it has an Authenticator to access the website. I tried the ole “but I only have a flip phone” and they said there was no other option. The bastards forced my hand.

neuronflux 6mo ago
So they issued you a company provided phone for this work specific functionality?
- caminante 6mo ago
  You haven't confirmed WHY they have a flip phone. If you're using a flip phone in this day and age, then it's not about the money.
- scorpionfeet 6mo ago
  YES! Immense waste of money. But I’m one out of hundreds that avoided a corporate iPhone for years. I hate it.
graemep 6mo ago
There are authenticator extensions for web browsers.
- scorpionfeet 6mo ago
  Unapproved by the company.
  - graemep 6mo ago
    So its their device you are using? otherwise how to they know what authenticator you are using? Most use the same standard.
    - integralid 6mo ago
      Except Microsoft Authenticator. That's what my company uses and this is the only reason I ever use my work phone.

Zak 6mo ago

Phones are perfectly capable of accessing websites. I think a lot of the shift here has to do with companies aggressively pushing apps because apps are more profitable, which in turn trains users to expect apps.

KellyCriterion 6mo ago
Sorry, there are by faaaar not as much useable mobile websites than crappy mobile websites - most mobile websites are not really optimized, more like "just let us deploy some custome mobile CSS and people will use it" style
- variaga 6mo ago
  Companies with poor quality mobile websites also usually have poor quality apps. The website can be objectively bad, but still better than the app experience.

vanviegen 6mo ago

I'm not sure about that. Kids around here seem to be learning to use a word processor (MS or Google), slide builder (MS, Google or Canva), search engine, as well as many educative apps on laptops at school starting from about age 8. Computers are not alien to them.

mint5 6mo ago

Wrong. While I agree about younger people’s impression and experience with apps and the internet, that is not what companies are responding to - in fact it’s backward. Companies have for ages pushed apps due to more control and data. That’s why younger folk grew up with apps. The push to apps was absolutely not due to companies responding to consumer sentiment. Yes now it has been ingrained so now there are expectations, but those are due to companies pushing people to apps for years and years

ChrisMarshallNY 6mo ago
Apps generally have a lot more access to the user info than Web sites. I remember getting into an argument, here (one-sided, I didn't argue then, and I won't now), about how a Web site is just as intrusive and privacy-endangering as an app (I think they wrote PWAs, and didn't want to cede the point to native apps). I feel they were wrong. Apps can get more information than web sites; even with sandboxing. In my experience, apps can figure out a lot more about the user, than a Web site. I just reported a game to Apple, that, after the app has been resident for 24 hours, pops up an unescapable modal to sign into their Web site. I am sure the 24-hour delay, is so they don't get caught by the App Store folks. I suspect that what happens, during this "daily checkin," is that the app sends a bunch of encrypted data that it got from your device, to the servers in China. Basically, they can learn more about you from the app, than from the Web site. I generally avoid apps, where the Web site will do. I won't install banking apps, at all.
- senordevnyc 6mo ago
  I suspect that what happens, during this "daily checkin," is that the app sends a bunch of encrypted data that it got from your device, to the servers in China. What information do you think they got from your device other than what you gave them permission to have? If you actually have any info on how apps can break Apple's sandbox to leak your personal info, you should share it.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 6mo ago
    Yeah, it's OK. I said that I wouldn't argue, and I'm sticking to that. Have a great day!

ranit 6mo ago

> What most people dont get ... The OP Blog post is comparing web versions vs applications. Both on the phone. And arguing that browser representation is often better than app functionality. Using desktop vs small screen phone is a different matter.

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

moron4hire 6mo ago

"The grandmas are too stupid to learn" but now it's the young people who are too dumb to figure out computers. So, I guess my generation is the only one that will ever figure out the Internet? Seems dumb.

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

8note 6mo ago

this where i think any claims that an iphone is not a full computing experience as justification for disallowing freedom on it to build and run your own software as you see fit as a bit ridiculous.

CivBase 6mo ago

You're right... but I think you have incorrectly conflated "web" with "desktop". Websites work perfectly fine on smartphones when they are designed to do so. I'm using HN on my phone's web browser right now to type this comment. I don't need an app for HN. I don't have many apps on my phone because I've found I simply don't need them. There are basically only two cases where I use apps: 1. When I want push notifications 2. When I want to use local files

tosti 6mo ago
If Android, try going into accessibility settings and set display size to maximum. Then see if you still like HN and many other websites with shitty unresponsive CSS.
- CivBase 6mo ago
  Why would I do that?
  - tosti 6mo ago
    IDK. In my case, instructions are much more readable in osmand while driving. Better readability is kinda the whole reason why such a setting exists. I certainly hope I'm not the only one trying to break my own work by adjusting a11y settings in the os. Computers are meant to support people, not the other way around.

izacus 6mo ago

That's an interesting mindset, since those 30+ tech savvy millennials are the ones that actually still have some money to spend left on apps and similar crap.

foobarian 6mo ago

It's worth mentioning that in many cases there is also the incentive to get away from Google's stranglehold on incoming traffic. Every app install is a path to your product that does not go through Google's SEO or SEM funnel.

dlcarrier 6mo ago

I don't see any evidence that is a user-driven change. For years now, often multiple times with the save vendor, I've been installing some vendors software, using it to complete a purchase that I had started in a web interface, then uninstalling the software, all so I could take advantage of ann unrealistically good promotion. I'm not talking about the type of savings that might be in an exceptionally good holiday promotion, that eats into most of, if not all of, the margin in the transaction. I'm talking about the type of promotion that would be used to promote a credit card, banking account, or gambling platform-- the kind of promotion that costs months worth of income from a customer but is worthwhile because the customer will be milked for years to come. This appears to be more related to modern security features that lock the vendor out of your computer, but lock you out of your phone, shifting which interface gives the vendor the advantage in future transactions.

nitwit005 6mo ago

Young people are the ones who claim they are most likely to abandon a purchase if they have to install an app: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/02/15/91-of-us-hate-being-forced-to-install-apps-to-do-business-costing-brands-billions/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/02/15/91-of-u...

jaredsohn 6mo ago

One thing that is useful to remember is that if you ask AI for help on using some app, it will likely refer to the mobile UI instead of the web UI. I find it annoying that sometimes there are features that are only available in the mobile UI.

HumblyTossed 6mo ago

I'm old. I use my phone for as much as I can, but if something isn't optimized for that screen, i will definitely use a large screen instead of suffering through the crap. As I said, I'm old - too old to be frustrated by shit software. Also, I prefer web apps to downloading native, with few exceptions. I don't want or need a lot of native apps.

dfxm12 6mo ago

I think what most people don't get is that an app is a gateway to get way more personal data of the user than the browser. I'm distrustful of any "app only" service for this reason. I think the article goes into more detail about other good reasons. What you're suggesting isn't a talking point because it's not pertinent. This isn't about a user's age, or mobiles. You can use Firefox on your smartphone. It's about digital literacy in terms of security and privacy. No matter how old you are, you do have to be taught that you're the product of these services, not just the customer. You have to be taught why that matters and how to combat it.

jmull 6mo ago

> Companies are seeing this switch, so they adapt. You’re confusing cause and effect here. Companies are pushing apps very hard because it gives them a lot more ability to wield their various revenue enhancing dark patterns. That kids see apps as the primary option is a corporate success metric, not an organic choice. Anyway, the premise that “phone screen ==> native app not web app” is rather faulty, is it not?

Klonoar 6mo ago
They’re not confusing anything, you’re just sticking your head in the sand. The modern entry path to “computing” is small screen devices (phones). Their point of newcomers not having our same entry path is accurate. This is organic, however much we don’t like it. Anything past that is just market skating where the puck is.
- aziaziazi 6mo ago
  I think they mean that a webapp is necessary desktop-first. Many websites/webapps are mobile-first. It resonate with me as I’m used to try new services on a (mobile) browser if available and switch to an app only if necessary. > the premise that “phone screen ==> native app not web app” is rather faulty, is it not?
- array_key_first 6mo ago
  Okay but that's not what he's arguing, you're missing the point. There's nothing stopping a website from being usable on a smartphone. In fact, almost all of these apps are just websites in disguise! They use web views to render. The reason it's an app and not a website isn't because apps are better for smartphones. It's because apps are native code running. It's also a choice that websites cannot present as apps (PWAs). Apple and Google purposefully did that so they can push users to apps instead of websites, for data farming purposes.
- jmull 6mo ago
  We're talking about web app vs native app here, not big screen vs small screen. Obviously, you can have either kind of app on either size of screen, so small screen first doesn't mean native apps. It's enshitification that's driving native adoption, not small screens.

ssl-3 6mo ago

Yes, people (including the olds like myself) have been gravitating away from using a PC for everyday tasks and towards things like pocket supercomputers, and people new to the world definitely start with phones these days. Phones are similar to PCs, in that both kinds of devices have quite capable web browsers and can also run purpose-built software. But if the question in the context of a phone is app-vs-web, then the analog on a PC is program-vs-web. Which is interesting, I think. Someone might download an app on their phone to accomplish a specific task instead of use a browser on that same phone, and that trend seems to be increasingly in favor of dedicated apps. But on the PC side, it appears to be going the other way: Prior to the introduction of things like Sir Tim Berners-Lee's WWW and ubiquitous always-on Internet, most tasks on a PC were done with dedicated, local programs. That has changed. Nowadays, we have things like whole office suites (pick any of them) and featureful CAD systems (like Onshape) that run quite well within a browser. POP and IMAP used to rule the day, and now we use Gmail in a browser. So on the PC, the longer trend seems to be more in favor of platform-independent web-based things instead of dedicated programs. So, it seems that the two market segments -- while functionally similar -- are moving in opposite directions. (I don't have an axe to grind here. I just think it's fun to think about these things.)

wolfi1 6mo ago

> Companies are seeing this switch, so they adapt. I guess they see more the possibilities of getting more data on their customers and even selling their data to others

neonstatic 6mo ago

> For them: The "Smartphone is the internet", while for most of us the "Smartphone is an extension of the internet from our desktops" that we were used to Yes! My zoomer girlfriend tuned her phone to be work ready. Unless she has to, she'd be working on the phone. I would never do that. To me the phone is uncomfortable. To her, it's the small, comfortable thing she knows better than the computer.

chrneu 6mo ago

a few years ago I stopped using social media to interact with fans. One thing I realized is that no matter how i use my blog to present a story, 90% of users simply dont interact with content in a meaningful way. The reason I mention social media is all the apps operate the same way: the user swipes up or down, left or right, double taps and moves on. A website or blog or interactive content requires interaction, it requires thinking, it requires the possibility of a mistake. Those things make most users never click more than once on a website. Once a website goes beyond the first page most users leave. It's really weird how folks are conditioned to do the least amount of effort in everything and then we complain when things are confusing. Convenience is a disease.

grishka 6mo ago

Is there something we can do to undo this change?

kazinator 6mo ago

This is about preferring the web version of the product from a mobile browser vs. the app on a mobile device, not desktop vs. mobile.

sumanep 6mo ago

I use a phone just for whatsapp and sometimes take a pic. Computer for everything else

rivalout 6mo ago

[dead]

Olshansky 6mo ago

I've never found a Hacker News comment this insightful. Ty.

3form 6mo ago

Plus the corollary, which I think is something that many here, including myself, struggle with - we are not important.

samrus 6mo ago

Thats a reason for the clients to be mobile first, but not why it meeds to be an app. It can be the movile version of the website too. Itll be less code manage that way too. Why dont companies just focus on mobile web?