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>We've ended up in a world where power users have been forgotten. I think its more like the OS vendors have stopped being operating system vendors, and are now

>We've ended up in a world where power users have been forgotten. I think its more like the OS vendors have stopped being operating system vendors, and are now - instead - vendors of eyeballs to advertisers. The less the user is GUI'ing, the more they are just watching, placid, whatever else is on their screen. For native apps to survive, they need to not be platform-specific - i.e. web apps, which require a browser and all its responsibilities - but rather cross-platform, reliable, predictable on all platforms - i.e. dissuaded from using native, but rather bespoke, UI frameworks. This is attainable and there are many great examples of apps which are in fact, old wheels not re-invented, which still work for their particular user market. I have the most respect for apps I can use on MacOS, Windows, and Linux - with the same hotkey/user experience on all platforms, equitably - and the least respect for apps which 'only run on one of them', since that is of course nonsense in this day and age. The cognitive load of doing a web app that can do all the things a native app can do, is equivalent to the load required to build a cross-platform app using native frameworks, so ..

jen20 7mo ago
> I have the most respect for apps I can use on MacOS, Windows, and Linux - with the same hotkey/user experience on all platforms, equitably - and the least respect for apps which 'only run on one of them', since that is of course nonsense in this day and age. No. I want things like keyboard shortcuts to reflect the platform norms of where the app is running (macOS in my case). A shared core is fine, but the UI framework must be native to be acceptable. Ghostty is a "gold standard" there. This is why most web apps are lowest-common-denominator annoyances that I will not use.
- rigonkulous 7mo ago
  Indeed, if the framework is sensible, keyboard shortcuts reflecting platform norms is entirely attainable in a manner that developers don't have to bother with it, much, if they don't want to. There are plenty of examples of cross-platform UI's surviving the hotkey dance and attaining user satisfaction. There are of course poor examples too, but that's a reflection of care, not effort.
vovavili 7mo ago
>i.e. dissuaded from using native, but rather bespoke, UI frameworks. Based on my experience, I would be quite reluctant to rely on any non-native cross-platform desktop UI framework that is not web-based. These tend to be either less performant, look outdated or are bug-ridden.
- throwaway2037 7mo ago
  What about Qt? It is the gold standard for cross-platform desktop UI frameworks. It is (1) performant (C++-based), (2) does not look outdated, and (3) not bug-ridden.
  - vovavili 7mo ago
    In my experience: - Qt Widgets worked fine, but looked like a piece of software made in 2013; - QML looks stylish and is a very nice language, but had a lot of weird bugs. Neither of these are issues I'd run with if I were to make a web app.
    - irishcoffee 7mo ago
      Widgets looks like whatever you want them to look like, if the feel like they're from the 2010s its because the implementer made that choice, not because of a limitation in qtwidgets.
      - vovavili 7mo ago
        Could be, but I am mostly speaking about the fact that making a web app looks stylish feels infinitely easier to me.
        irishcoffee 7mo ago
        Qt uses css. Its no different than what you’re describing.
      - throwaway2037 7mo ago
cineticdaffodil 7mo ago
It seems you fumbled your starmenue click, the start menue will be right back, right after these messages.

jen20 7mo ago

> I have the most respect for apps I can use on MacOS, Windows, and Linux - with the same hotkey/user experience on all platforms, equitably - and the least respect for apps which 'only run on one of them', since that is of course nonsense in this day and age. No. I want things like keyboard shortcuts to reflect the platform norms of where the app is running (macOS in my case). A shared core is fine, but the UI framework must be native to be acceptable. Ghostty is a "gold standard" there. This is why most web apps are lowest-common-denominator annoyances that I will not use.

rigonkulous 7mo ago
Indeed, if the framework is sensible, keyboard shortcuts reflecting platform norms is entirely attainable in a manner that developers don't have to bother with it, much, if they don't want to. There are plenty of examples of cross-platform UI's surviving the hotkey dance and attaining user satisfaction. There are of course poor examples too, but that's a reflection of care, not effort.

vovavili 7mo ago

>i.e. dissuaded from using native, but rather bespoke, UI frameworks. Based on my experience, I would be quite reluctant to rely on any non-native cross-platform desktop UI framework that is not web-based. These tend to be either less performant, look outdated or are bug-ridden.

throwaway2037 7mo ago
What about Qt? It is the gold standard for cross-platform desktop UI frameworks. It is (1) performant (C++-based), (2) does not look outdated, and (3) not bug-ridden.
- vovavili 7mo ago
  In my experience: - Qt Widgets worked fine, but looked like a piece of software made in 2013; - QML looks stylish and is a very nice language, but had a lot of weird bugs. Neither of these are issues I'd run with if I were to make a web app.
  - irishcoffee 7mo ago
    Widgets looks like whatever you want them to look like, if the feel like they're from the 2010s its because the implementer made that choice, not because of a limitation in qtwidgets.
    - vovavili 7mo ago
      Could be, but I am mostly speaking about the fact that making a web app looks stylish feels infinitely easier to me.
      - irishcoffee 7mo ago
        Qt uses css. Its no different than what you’re describing.
    - throwaway2037 7mo ago

cineticdaffodil 7mo ago

It seems you fumbled your starmenue click, the start menue will be right back, right after these messages.