4 ms·

I get his point, but can't get away from the idea that he's describing the web... and php. New distribution system, larger audience, same idea.

by ojbyrne 18y ago

scott_s 18y ago
That seemed to the obvious answer to me. Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft aren't going to open up development on their consoles because they make money off of licensing fees.
- Shamiq 18y ago
  Unless they disallowed vendors from charging for games made by the "open" dev kit, thereby preserving the licensing fee. Or just eliminate the fee in its entirety and take a slice of the revenue (or marginally larger slice). I don't see how lowering cost of entry could be anything but advantageous to console makers.
  - Radix 18y ago
    On the first thought: I don't see it,they would still have to contend with a growing community of people who mostly want to play homebrew and open source games. On the second: Maybe, but that might be seen as a barrier to publishing a game made for fun that just happened to be good. "Eh, I'll just give it away, I was only doing it for fun anyway."
jwb119 18y ago
completely agree.. even building a basic html webpage hits a decent amount of his marks (transportable, improves connectivity, etc.) is it so obvious that it was overlooked?
neilk 18y ago
Possibly, but PHP limits you to web-style interactions. You have to be excruciatingly clever to get it to act like a chat server or something. And forget about doing animation or sound or anything fun.
- axod 18y ago
  So once you've mastered php, you move onto something more powerful. You can do tons in javascript these days also.
  - ambition 18y ago
    Right, but many beginning programmers don't want to start with something boring and move on to the fun stuff. You can't show a CGI form to your friends and have them drool over how cool it is. Instant gratification is key.
    - reeses 18y ago
      It almost has to be at the level of myspace -- look, I can quickly add this picture, or this music, or this text to a page all my friends can see.
bryn 18y ago
Hmm, _maybe_ Javascript. You really need to be able to jump in and see results - visual results. The visual feedback of Logo was definitely instrumental in getting me into programming.
- llimllib 18y ago
  Like maybe a tutorial that helps you build a breakout clone, where all the code is live and interactive in an editor in your browser? http://billmill.org/static/canvastutorial/ http://billmill.org/static/canvastutorial/
  - bryn 18y ago
    Very cool.
thalur 18y ago
(as a web programming novice) I think the problem with the web in this context is there are still some significant hurdles to getting set up, e.g. getting a server to host your webpages (unless you only want your friends to be able to see it when your PC is on). If you could get rid of these barriers... I think if someone could provide a browser-based all-in-one solution with language+IDE+hosting+tutorials, then that would fulfill most of his criteria. You could type a few lines, instantly view the page and then send a link to your friends (who can view it at any time).
- axod 18y ago
  "If you could get rid of these barriers..." What you don't think there are enough ridiculously bad programmers using PHP/javascript already? Barriers to entry are good. It sorts the people who really want to do it because they love it, from the rest.
  - axod 18y ago
    OK, perhaps I should have written a bit more here. The issue is, there is pretty much no barrier at all to programming at the moment. That's why there are so many bad programmers who have just heard there's money to be made. Add to that the fact that identifying bad programmers is sometimes hard, and you have a bad situation. Raise that barrier for entry, and perhaps someone who thinks "Wow there's money to be made in programming, I better get a job in it", will fall at the first hurdle. If you're interested in it enough, there's plenty of easy to start development environments around for any beginner.
    - Xichekolas 18y ago
      I think a better solution is to have an incredibly low barrier to entry (never know if you are a good programmer until you try it, so getting more people to try means more good programmers), and then focusing on improving your programmer selection (if you are hiring). If a bad programmer can't get a job, then they will most likely find another path in life. (If they keep writing bad code for themselves, who cares?) As far as open source is concerned, bad programmers don't bother me, because you can generally find a solution written by someone that is good.

I get his point, but can't get away from the idea that he's describing the web... and php. New distribution system, larger audience, same idea.

by ojbyrne 18y ago

I get his point, but can't get away from the idea that he's describing the web... and php. New distribution system, larger audience, same idea.

scott_s 18y ago

That seemed to the obvious answer to me. Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft aren't going to open up development on their consoles because they make money off of licensing fees.

Shamiq 18y ago
Unless they disallowed vendors from charging for games made by the "open" dev kit, thereby preserving the licensing fee. Or just eliminate the fee in its entirety and take a slice of the revenue (or marginally larger slice). I don't see how lowering cost of entry could be anything but advantageous to console makers.
- Radix 18y ago
  On the first thought: I don't see it,they would still have to contend with a growing community of people who mostly want to play homebrew and open source games. On the second: Maybe, but that might be seen as a barrier to publishing a game made for fun that just happened to be good. "Eh, I'll just give it away, I was only doing it for fun anyway."

jwb119 18y ago

completely agree.. even building a basic html webpage hits a decent amount of his marks (transportable, improves connectivity, etc.) is it so obvious that it was overlooked?

neilk 18y ago

Possibly, but PHP limits you to web-style interactions. You have to be excruciatingly clever to get it to act like a chat server or something. And forget about doing animation or sound or anything fun.

axod 18y ago
So once you've mastered php, you move onto something more powerful. You can do tons in javascript these days also.
- ambition 18y ago
  Right, but many beginning programmers don't want to start with something boring and move on to the fun stuff. You can't show a CGI form to your friends and have them drool over how cool it is. Instant gratification is key.
  - reeses 18y ago
    It almost has to be at the level of myspace -- look, I can quickly add this picture, or this music, or this text to a page all my friends can see.

bryn 18y ago

Hmm, _maybe_ Javascript. You really need to be able to jump in and see results - visual results. The visual feedback of Logo was definitely instrumental in getting me into programming.

llimllib 18y ago
Like maybe a tutorial that helps you build a breakout clone, where all the code is live and interactive in an editor in your browser? http://billmill.org/static/canvastutorial/ http://billmill.org/static/canvastutorial/
- bryn 18y ago
  Very cool.

thalur 18y ago

(as a web programming novice) I think the problem with the web in this context is there are still some significant hurdles to getting set up, e.g. getting a server to host your webpages (unless you only want your friends to be able to see it when your PC is on). If you could get rid of these barriers... I think if someone could provide a browser-based all-in-one solution with language+IDE+hosting+tutorials, then that would fulfill most of his criteria. You could type a few lines, instantly view the page and then send a link to your friends (who can view it at any time).

axod 18y ago
"If you could get rid of these barriers..." What you don't think there are enough ridiculously bad programmers using PHP/javascript already? Barriers to entry are good. It sorts the people who really want to do it because they love it, from the rest.
- axod 18y ago
  OK, perhaps I should have written a bit more here. The issue is, there is pretty much no barrier at all to programming at the moment. That's why there are so many bad programmers who have just heard there's money to be made. Add to that the fact that identifying bad programmers is sometimes hard, and you have a bad situation. Raise that barrier for entry, and perhaps someone who thinks "Wow there's money to be made in programming, I better get a job in it", will fall at the first hurdle. If you're interested in it enough, there's plenty of easy to start development environments around for any beginner.
  - Xichekolas 18y ago
    I think a better solution is to have an incredibly low barrier to entry (never know if you are a good programmer until you try it, so getting more people to try means more good programmers), and then focusing on improving your programmer selection (if you are hiring). If a bad programmer can't get a job, then they will most likely find another path in life. (If they keep writing bad code for themselves, who cares?) As far as open source is concerned, bad programmers don't bother me, because you can generally find a solution written by someone that is good.