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The student is attending college to get a job. Most students don't care about the course. Probably around 50% of students in my year were only in it for the we

The student is attending college to get a job. Most students don't care about the course. Probably around 50% of students in my year were only in it for the well paying jobs a prestigious degree like that could give them. This has to be part of the threat model for cheating.

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
zeroCalories 6mo ago
It's pointless. Just an arms race of gimmicks. There's really no option besides making homework all optional, and putting 100% of the grade into in-person exams. I basically don't trust that any new graduate has earned their degree, and won't until schools do what's necessary to crush cheaters.
- petterroea 6mo ago
  I agree with you in spirit, but the last meta pre-LLM was that exams were bad at measuring student skill and that students felt more fairly treated when their grade was the result of multiple assignments and projects. I think it's a shame we have move away from that
  - volemo 6mo ago
    > exams were bad at measuring student skill They are. I have a friend who was significantly more smart and thorough in our studies but often get bad scores on exams not being able to concentrate under the pressure.
    - petterroea 6mo ago
      Exams also rarely measured skill in the course. Often just a subset. We would often spend the last month of each semester cramming exams instead of studying the curse material because it wasn't that useful. I rarely felt I got a lot out of courses, but I often felt I would if I got to study it properly
    - adityamwagh 6mo ago
      Isn’t that actually a valid way to test? IMHO Performing under pressure is a capability signal in itself.
      - volemo 6mo ago
        Well, that is a way to test students’ ability to perform under pressure, but I’m adamant it’s not a fair assessment of their skill in the subject at hand, nor how much they’d worked and improved during the course. On several occasions I have gotten higher marks than my friend because of their anxiety issues, despite me being a worse student and arguably a worse researcher (what we studied for).
    - zeroCalories 6mo ago
      I also struggled with exams, but that's because my understanding was often shallow, due to a lack of effort to study and understand the material. I'm very suspicious of people that say they're smart, but can't perform on exams. That said, there's plenty of ways to structure things to avoid this. Have weekly, easy, pass / fail exams that ensure you've read the material at a basic level, or understood some basic concepts. Lab work. Presentations with live grilling from the professor to ensure you understand the topic.
      - volemo 6mo ago
        I don’t think my friend would claim to be smart (and not I’m not talking about myself in third person to sound more convincingly, I have a real las in mind). I say they are. I saw them in a day to day work and they are both more knowledgeable and more productive than I am. It’s being put on the spot, with high stakes and limited time, they had a difficulty with. > there's plenty of ways to structure things to avoid this Sure, I was arguing specifically against GGP’s solution, i.e. betting everything on the finals.
    - jejeje2 6mo ago
      If you can’t concentrate under pressure then you will not go very far in employment….
      - volemo 6mo ago
        Huh? Not every job requires this trait, and even though some do, it’s not something nonlinear optics professor ought to evaluate. Sure, it’s a nice quality to have and I find it useful at times: when it’s “suddenly” the last day to write a proposal, or when someone has to present at a conference. (However, these tasks many other skills besides just the ability to stay calm.) But I can’t agree that it is indispensable for a researcher.
        jejeje2 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        volemo 6mo ago
        I don’t want to be a CEO, mate. Why would I give up my cushy place where I’m paid to do interesting stuff, for a stressful position full of management responsibilities? I swear, more people should learn the idea of lagom.
- lukewarm707 6mo ago
  the course is now no longer cs/swe. the course is now "how to pass exams in cs/swe"
  - zeroCalories 6mo ago
    Better than "how to get a passing grade in cs/swe"
chiffaa 6mo ago
I am in my final year of my bachelors in Software Engineering. I was (mostly still am) very interested in both SWE and CS in various angles - I studied a decent bit of PL theory, I tried to get into systems programming, I've built a bunch of "portfolio crud" software and had a short internship in a real company, with all of the above being roughly equally interesting to me. All this is to say I genuinely love the field so far. However, the only benefit I've got from my local university is that it saves me from military while I study. Past year 2 (out of 4, country-specific quirks) there was roughly one subject actually worth paying attention to, so I also have switched to a "just get a decent grade at any cost" mode, as most of the material we're studying (and especially most of the assignments we've done) has negative value in real world. Most of my peers consider me both more enthused and more knowledgeable than the average student, which mostly makes me realise that roughly 95% of my peers don't care about the contents of the courses. All this is to say that, while grading is hard, the only thing that might get people to actually care is a proper course, no matter what threats you make.
- petterroea 6mo ago
  I know many people who were in the exact same situation as you while at uni. I hope you find value. For me, my hobbies probably gave me 2x more experience, but uni forced me to learn things i would have never learned by myself. It made me believe self taught engineers were inherently flawed from only knowing what they themselves thought was important. I'm sure you'll find value at the end, but I think you are valid in feeling you are wasting time.
- tim-tday 6mo ago
  “there was roughly one subject actually worth paying attention to” I don’t know what country you live in but I have gone to university. Saying that none (but one) of your subjects were worth paying attention to and further that they have negative real world value is baffling. Surely they teach math, history, literature, require you to do research from books, write essays remember what you’ve read… None of that is worth anything? Your assertion is baffling. Are you living in a weird totalitarian state where your education consists of active brainwashing? Are you suggesting that your country performs some sort of undesirable indoctrination that you’re heroically resisting by not paying attention to the assignments?

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

zeroCalories 6mo ago

It's pointless. Just an arms race of gimmicks. There's really no option besides making homework all optional, and putting 100% of the grade into in-person exams. I basically don't trust that any new graduate has earned their degree, and won't until schools do what's necessary to crush cheaters.

petterroea 6mo ago
I agree with you in spirit, but the last meta pre-LLM was that exams were bad at measuring student skill and that students felt more fairly treated when their grade was the result of multiple assignments and projects. I think it's a shame we have move away from that
- volemo 6mo ago
  > exams were bad at measuring student skill They are. I have a friend who was significantly more smart and thorough in our studies but often get bad scores on exams not being able to concentrate under the pressure.
  - petterroea 6mo ago
    Exams also rarely measured skill in the course. Often just a subset. We would often spend the last month of each semester cramming exams instead of studying the curse material because it wasn't that useful. I rarely felt I got a lot out of courses, but I often felt I would if I got to study it properly
  - adityamwagh 6mo ago
    Isn’t that actually a valid way to test? IMHO Performing under pressure is a capability signal in itself.
    - volemo 6mo ago
      Well, that is a way to test students’ ability to perform under pressure, but I’m adamant it’s not a fair assessment of their skill in the subject at hand, nor how much they’d worked and improved during the course. On several occasions I have gotten higher marks than my friend because of their anxiety issues, despite me being a worse student and arguably a worse researcher (what we studied for).
  - zeroCalories 6mo ago
    I also struggled with exams, but that's because my understanding was often shallow, due to a lack of effort to study and understand the material. I'm very suspicious of people that say they're smart, but can't perform on exams. That said, there's plenty of ways to structure things to avoid this. Have weekly, easy, pass / fail exams that ensure you've read the material at a basic level, or understood some basic concepts. Lab work. Presentations with live grilling from the professor to ensure you understand the topic.
    - volemo 6mo ago
      I don’t think my friend would claim to be smart (and not I’m not talking about myself in third person to sound more convincingly, I have a real las in mind). I say they are. I saw them in a day to day work and they are both more knowledgeable and more productive than I am. It’s being put on the spot, with high stakes and limited time, they had a difficulty with. > there's plenty of ways to structure things to avoid this Sure, I was arguing specifically against GGP’s solution, i.e. betting everything on the finals.
  - jejeje2 6mo ago
    If you can’t concentrate under pressure then you will not go very far in employment….
    - volemo 6mo ago
      Huh? Not every job requires this trait, and even though some do, it’s not something nonlinear optics professor ought to evaluate. Sure, it’s a nice quality to have and I find it useful at times: when it’s “suddenly” the last day to write a proposal, or when someone has to present at a conference. (However, these tasks many other skills besides just the ability to stay calm.) But I can’t agree that it is indispensable for a researcher.
      - jejeje2 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        volemo 6mo ago
        I don’t want to be a CEO, mate. Why would I give up my cushy place where I’m paid to do interesting stuff, for a stressful position full of management responsibilities? I swear, more people should learn the idea of lagom.
lukewarm707 6mo ago
the course is now no longer cs/swe. the course is now "how to pass exams in cs/swe"
- zeroCalories 6mo ago
  Better than "how to get a passing grade in cs/swe"

chiffaa 6mo ago

I am in my final year of my bachelors in Software Engineering. I was (mostly still am) very interested in both SWE and CS in various angles - I studied a decent bit of PL theory, I tried to get into systems programming, I've built a bunch of "portfolio crud" software and had a short internship in a real company, with all of the above being roughly equally interesting to me. All this is to say I genuinely love the field so far. However, the only benefit I've got from my local university is that it saves me from military while I study. Past year 2 (out of 4, country-specific quirks) there was roughly one subject actually worth paying attention to, so I also have switched to a "just get a decent grade at any cost" mode, as most of the material we're studying (and especially most of the assignments we've done) has negative value in real world. Most of my peers consider me both more enthused and more knowledgeable than the average student, which mostly makes me realise that roughly 95% of my peers don't care about the contents of the courses. All this is to say that, while grading is hard, the only thing that might get people to actually care is a proper course, no matter what threats you make.

petterroea 6mo ago
I know many people who were in the exact same situation as you while at uni. I hope you find value. For me, my hobbies probably gave me 2x more experience, but uni forced me to learn things i would have never learned by myself. It made me believe self taught engineers were inherently flawed from only knowing what they themselves thought was important. I'm sure you'll find value at the end, but I think you are valid in feeling you are wasting time.
tim-tday 6mo ago
“there was roughly one subject actually worth paying attention to” I don’t know what country you live in but I have gone to university. Saying that none (but one) of your subjects were worth paying attention to and further that they have negative real world value is baffling. Surely they teach math, history, literature, require you to do research from books, write essays remember what you’ve read… None of that is worth anything? Your assertion is baffling. Are you living in a weird totalitarian state where your education consists of active brainwashing? Are you suggesting that your country performs some sort of undesirable indoctrination that you’re heroically resisting by not paying attention to the assignments?