4 ms·

Microsoft was found guilty of using their market power to do product bundling, which is illegal. The fact that they had dominance in the market is not what they

Microsoft was found guilty of using their market power to do product bundling, which is illegal. The fact that they had dominance in the market is not what they got popped for, nor is it illegal.

sroussey 6mo ago
You just described Apple.
- selectodude 6mo ago
  Apple has not, to my knowledge, required OEMs to bundle Safari with macOS alongside threats to withhold macOS if they don’t comply expressly to put Firefox out of business. But hey, maybe some weird shit happened during the clone years that I’m not privy to.
  - SvenL 6mo ago
    Apple requires Developers to use AppStore with their App alongside threats to withhold their App if they don’t comply. Just an example… and yes, I know the EU ruling but it’s still fitting.
    - pdpi 6mo ago
      The crucially important subtlety here is that Apple requiring developers to use the App Store doesn't leverage an existing monopoly (like what Microsoft had with Windows). Compare the games console market. Nintendo is allowed to say you have to go through them to sell games for the Switch, ditto Microsoft with the Xbox. Sony doing the same thing with the Playstation is exactly equivalent, but they're approaching the sort of market dominance where it might soon be illegal for them (and them alone) to do that in some markets.
      - AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
        > The crucially important subtlety here is that Apple requiring developers to use the App Store doesn't leverage an existing monopoly (like what Microsoft had with Windows). Copyright (e.g. over iOS) and patent (e.g. over iPhone hardware) are explicitly government-granted monopolies. Having that monopoly is allowed on purpose, but that isn't the same as it not existing, and having a government-granted monopoly and leveraging into another market are two quite distinct things. > Compare the games console market. Okay, all of the consoles that require you to sell you to sell through their stores shouldn't be able to do that either. > but they're approaching the sort of market dominance where it might soon be illegal for them (and them alone) to do that in some markets. Wait, your theory is that a console with ~50% market share has market dominance but Apple with ~60% of US phones doesn't?
        scott_w 6mo ago
        There’s no such thing as “having a monopoly on iPhone” in law. You have to have a monopoly in a market, of which iPhone is part of the “smartphone” market. It is not a monopoly in the smartphone market, to the best of my knowledge.
        AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
        > You have to have a monopoly in a market, of which iPhone is part of the “smartphone” market. Products and markets are not a one to one mapping. For example, if you sell low-background steel, that's part of the broader "steel" market because anyone who needs ordinary steel could buy it from you and use it for the same purposes as ordinary steel. But low-background steel is also its own market, because the people who need that can't use ordinary steel. Likewise for sellers of products with higher purity levels, products that satisfy particular standards or regulatory requirements, etc. It's only the same market if it's the same thing. Clorox bleach is the same as other bleach; Microsoft Windows is not the same as MacOS. And iOS is not the same as Android. I mean this really isn't that hard: Are they substitutes for each other? If you have a GE washing machine, can you use any brand of bleach? You can, so they're in the same market. If you have an app that exists for iOS and not Android, can you use an Android device? No, so they're not in the same market. Likewise, if you've written a mobile app and need to distribute it to your customers who have iOS devices, can you use Google Play? Again no, which is what makes them different markets. They're not substitutes, any more than a retailer in Texas is a substitute for a retailer in California when you have customers in both states -- or only have customers in California.
longislandguido 6mo ago
Let me know how I can unbundle Safari from macOS or iOS. Go ahead, I'll wait.
- chongli 6mo ago
  It's possible on the Mac, but it's not easy. Apple uses an immutable system volume on macOS, so you can't just delete the Safari app like you would a user-installed app. To actually delete Safari you need to disable System Integrity Protection and reboot. There are plenty of Linux distributions that use immutable root volumes. They protect the user in a huge number of ways by preventing the system from getting hosed (either by accident or by malicious unauthorized users / malware). Apple made the decision to do this for their users, and it has prevented a HUGE amount of tech support calls, as well as led to millions of happy users with trouble-free computers. It also hasn't stopped users from installing Chrome and/or Firefox on their Macs, and millions of ordinary users have.
  - AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
    > It also hasn't stopped users from installing Chrome and/or Firefox on their Macs, and millions of ordinary users have. You seem to be ignoring the part where you can't install the Chome and/or Firefox browser engines on iOS and the apps with those names on that platform are just skins over Safari. Notice in particular that the iOS version of "Firefox" can't support extensions.
    - raw_anon_1111 6mo ago
      And that has nothing to do with the Mac…
      - AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
        Here's the post the GP responded to: > Let me know how I can unbundle Safari from macOS or iOS. > Go ahead, I'll wait. You can't get even macOS from the store without Safari, which is the thing Microsoft was doing, but what Apple does on iOS is far worse than what Microsoft was doing and talking about only macOS is kind of burying the lede.

Microsoft was found guilty of using their market power to do product bundling, which is illegal. The fact that they had dominance in the market is not what they got popped for, nor is it illegal.

sroussey 6mo ago

You just described Apple.

selectodude 6mo ago
Apple has not, to my knowledge, required OEMs to bundle Safari with macOS alongside threats to withhold macOS if they don’t comply expressly to put Firefox out of business. But hey, maybe some weird shit happened during the clone years that I’m not privy to.
- SvenL 6mo ago
  Apple requires Developers to use AppStore with their App alongside threats to withhold their App if they don’t comply. Just an example… and yes, I know the EU ruling but it’s still fitting.
  - pdpi 6mo ago
    The crucially important subtlety here is that Apple requiring developers to use the App Store doesn't leverage an existing monopoly (like what Microsoft had with Windows). Compare the games console market. Nintendo is allowed to say you have to go through them to sell games for the Switch, ditto Microsoft with the Xbox. Sony doing the same thing with the Playstation is exactly equivalent, but they're approaching the sort of market dominance where it might soon be illegal for them (and them alone) to do that in some markets.
    - AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
      > The crucially important subtlety here is that Apple requiring developers to use the App Store doesn't leverage an existing monopoly (like what Microsoft had with Windows). Copyright (e.g. over iOS) and patent (e.g. over iPhone hardware) are explicitly government-granted monopolies. Having that monopoly is allowed on purpose, but that isn't the same as it not existing, and having a government-granted monopoly and leveraging into another market are two quite distinct things. > Compare the games console market. Okay, all of the consoles that require you to sell you to sell through their stores shouldn't be able to do that either. > but they're approaching the sort of market dominance where it might soon be illegal for them (and them alone) to do that in some markets. Wait, your theory is that a console with ~50% market share has market dominance but Apple with ~60% of US phones doesn't?
      - scott_w 6mo ago
        There’s no such thing as “having a monopoly on iPhone” in law. You have to have a monopoly in a market, of which iPhone is part of the “smartphone” market. It is not a monopoly in the smartphone market, to the best of my knowledge.
        AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
        > You have to have a monopoly in a market, of which iPhone is part of the “smartphone” market. Products and markets are not a one to one mapping. For example, if you sell low-background steel, that's part of the broader "steel" market because anyone who needs ordinary steel could buy it from you and use it for the same purposes as ordinary steel. But low-background steel is also its own market, because the people who need that can't use ordinary steel. Likewise for sellers of products with higher purity levels, products that satisfy particular standards or regulatory requirements, etc. It's only the same market if it's the same thing. Clorox bleach is the same as other bleach; Microsoft Windows is not the same as MacOS. And iOS is not the same as Android. I mean this really isn't that hard: Are they substitutes for each other? If you have a GE washing machine, can you use any brand of bleach? You can, so they're in the same market. If you have an app that exists for iOS and not Android, can you use an Android device? No, so they're not in the same market. Likewise, if you've written a mobile app and need to distribute it to your customers who have iOS devices, can you use Google Play? Again no, which is what makes them different markets. They're not substitutes, any more than a retailer in Texas is a substitute for a retailer in California when you have customers in both states -- or only have customers in California.

longislandguido 6mo ago

Let me know how I can unbundle Safari from macOS or iOS. Go ahead, I'll wait.

chongli 6mo ago
It's possible on the Mac, but it's not easy. Apple uses an immutable system volume on macOS, so you can't just delete the Safari app like you would a user-installed app. To actually delete Safari you need to disable System Integrity Protection and reboot. There are plenty of Linux distributions that use immutable root volumes. They protect the user in a huge number of ways by preventing the system from getting hosed (either by accident or by malicious unauthorized users / malware). Apple made the decision to do this for their users, and it has prevented a HUGE amount of tech support calls, as well as led to millions of happy users with trouble-free computers. It also hasn't stopped users from installing Chrome and/or Firefox on their Macs, and millions of ordinary users have.
- AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
  > It also hasn't stopped users from installing Chrome and/or Firefox on their Macs, and millions of ordinary users have. You seem to be ignoring the part where you can't install the Chome and/or Firefox browser engines on iOS and the apps with those names on that platform are just skins over Safari. Notice in particular that the iOS version of "Firefox" can't support extensions.
  - raw_anon_1111 6mo ago
    And that has nothing to do with the Mac…
    - AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
      Here's the post the GP responded to: > Let me know how I can unbundle Safari from macOS or iOS. > Go ahead, I'll wait. You can't get even macOS from the store without Safari, which is the thing Microsoft was doing, but what Apple does on iOS is far worse than what Microsoft was doing and talking about only macOS is kind of burying the lede.