6 ms·

How can a state survive if this weren't the norm? Why would men fight and die for a government that views their own wives and daughters as cannon fodder? If t

How can a state survive if this weren't the norm? Why would men fight and die for a government that views their own wives and daughters as cannon fodder? If the government is conscripting men's wives to war, is it really in the interest of men to risk their own lives to protect that government? If the government took my wife and sent her to war, I'd sooner firebomb a government office than join up to fight for the government. If a woman wants to fight, that's another story entirely. But conscripting women? That's poison.

missedthecue 6mo ago
Most young men don't have wives or daughters. It's not 1850 anymore. I would rather both genders get drafted than be in a Ukraine situation where millions of women leave for richer countries while I am pulled off the street to go eat FPV drones. What's even the point? Why not surrender? What am I protecting or preserving?
- nslsm 6mo ago
  You are protecting a society who doesn’t care about you. Aren’t you glad?
  - ashleyn 6mo ago
    This goes missed a lot in debates about conscription. The Iran war in the US and the Ukraine war in Russia enjoy very little popular support among military aged men. This is in stark contrast to WW2, and even in Vietnam there was still a strain of thinking of draft resisters as cowards. But wars in this day and age enjoy a shockingly tiny public mandate, and it's entirely possible that governments can only do a draft on paper. Putin is practically unable to push further mobilisation because the first round provoked such stiff violence and resistance.
- Ylpertnodi 6mo ago
  > What's even the point? Rich people staying in power is the point. > Why not surrender? Surrendering is not always practicable. You will get killed if you're a liability to your captors. > What am I protecting or preserving? That's really only yours, and yours alone, to consider.
  - rvnx 6mo ago
    There is another option too: cooperate. Any ruler wants active units of production (humans extracting money or gold or food), and for that it has to bring some sort of stable life environment and not be too greedy so people don't try to revolt. Whether you get such through political negotiation before or after a war, or through a vote, or through a revolution, is the same as the end.
xandrius 6mo ago
And what about a government which sends sons? Your point makes absolutely no sense, especially in relation to feminism. Equal rights and equal duties.
- mikkupikku 6mo ago
  We're not having this conversation in a cultural vacuum; men figure out at a young age that if things go to shit, their lives become expendable for the sake of the community. I view conscription as a form of slavery; something that I hope never happens to me or anybody, but could conceivably happen. That's the way the world has worked for thousands of years, and the Bayesian meme asks me to therefore bet on it continuing to be this way. But it doesn't have to be this way for women too. Why should it be, misery loves company? If men are going to be dying, we should draft women to die too? That's not feminism, that's insanity.
  - machomaster 6mo ago
    Why should men sacrifice and die for nothing, by not getting anything in return, not even a simple appreciation? Why should only men die when things get tough? I also would much rather see other unknown women die, than to send myself or my son to die for them. Women need to pull their weight. And since they aren't doing that from the evolutional POV, neither in practice (birth crisis) nor in theory (not like giving birth is a legal duty, unlike a draft), then they can at least be useful for a society as a cannon fodder. The more women start pulling their weight and contribute, the less weight there will be for men to pull. What not to love about this equality!
    - samus 6mo ago
      The right reaction about bad things happening to a percentage of the population is to get rid of it if at all possible, not making everybody suffer from it. If you don't expect males to voluntarily sacrifice and die for the country, why would you expect women to suffer nine months of body horror (provocatively stated) and expend multiple years of full-time care to raise children? > And since they aren't doing that from the evolutional POV, neither in practice (birth crisis) nor in theory (not like giving birth is a legal duty, unlike a draft), then they can at least be useful for a society as a cannon fodder. Women already contribute to society by being in the work force. If you think that's not enough, then you should probably think about rewarding them for doing something else.
ihsw 6mo ago
How does a state survive if refugees/immigrants are imported en masse and then the state becomes so dysfunctional to such a degree that its male citizens must be conscripted to fight and die for it? Surely this is a recipe for disaster. I would sooner die for my family and my country but I wouldn't lift a finger to save the lives of refugees/immigrants.
- petre 6mo ago
  You die for your country and the refugees make the state survive. Germany becomes Deutschstan, Köln Dom is converted to a minaret and Hildegard is required to wear a hijab in public at all times, that's how. At least that's probably how Michel Houellebecq would imagine it.
- randomNumber7 6mo ago
  Why not just leave for another more sane country before that happens? It's for sure what I will do.
Caius-Cosades 6mo ago
Why are those women then allowed to have vote in matters if they are not forced to carry responsibility for their voting behaviour?
- randomNumber7 6mo ago
  Because we saw what men do in the last thousand years and if women would be in charge everything would be like the paradise /S
dudul 6mo ago
[flagged]

missedthecue 6mo ago

Most young men don't have wives or daughters. It's not 1850 anymore. I would rather both genders get drafted than be in a Ukraine situation where millions of women leave for richer countries while I am pulled off the street to go eat FPV drones. What's even the point? Why not surrender? What am I protecting or preserving?

nslsm 6mo ago
You are protecting a society who doesn’t care about you. Aren’t you glad?
- ashleyn 6mo ago
  This goes missed a lot in debates about conscription. The Iran war in the US and the Ukraine war in Russia enjoy very little popular support among military aged men. This is in stark contrast to WW2, and even in Vietnam there was still a strain of thinking of draft resisters as cowards. But wars in this day and age enjoy a shockingly tiny public mandate, and it's entirely possible that governments can only do a draft on paper. Putin is practically unable to push further mobilisation because the first round provoked such stiff violence and resistance.
Ylpertnodi 6mo ago
> What's even the point? Rich people staying in power is the point. > Why not surrender? Surrendering is not always practicable. You will get killed if you're a liability to your captors. > What am I protecting or preserving? That's really only yours, and yours alone, to consider.
- rvnx 6mo ago
  There is another option too: cooperate. Any ruler wants active units of production (humans extracting money or gold or food), and for that it has to bring some sort of stable life environment and not be too greedy so people don't try to revolt. Whether you get such through political negotiation before or after a war, or through a vote, or through a revolution, is the same as the end.

xandrius 6mo ago

And what about a government which sends sons? Your point makes absolutely no sense, especially in relation to feminism. Equal rights and equal duties.

mikkupikku 6mo ago
We're not having this conversation in a cultural vacuum; men figure out at a young age that if things go to shit, their lives become expendable for the sake of the community. I view conscription as a form of slavery; something that I hope never happens to me or anybody, but could conceivably happen. That's the way the world has worked for thousands of years, and the Bayesian meme asks me to therefore bet on it continuing to be this way. But it doesn't have to be this way for women too. Why should it be, misery loves company? If men are going to be dying, we should draft women to die too? That's not feminism, that's insanity.
- machomaster 6mo ago
  Why should men sacrifice and die for nothing, by not getting anything in return, not even a simple appreciation? Why should only men die when things get tough? I also would much rather see other unknown women die, than to send myself or my son to die for them. Women need to pull their weight. And since they aren't doing that from the evolutional POV, neither in practice (birth crisis) nor in theory (not like giving birth is a legal duty, unlike a draft), then they can at least be useful for a society as a cannon fodder. The more women start pulling their weight and contribute, the less weight there will be for men to pull. What not to love about this equality!
  - samus 6mo ago
    The right reaction about bad things happening to a percentage of the population is to get rid of it if at all possible, not making everybody suffer from it. If you don't expect males to voluntarily sacrifice and die for the country, why would you expect women to suffer nine months of body horror (provocatively stated) and expend multiple years of full-time care to raise children? > And since they aren't doing that from the evolutional POV, neither in practice (birth crisis) nor in theory (not like giving birth is a legal duty, unlike a draft), then they can at least be useful for a society as a cannon fodder. Women already contribute to society by being in the work force. If you think that's not enough, then you should probably think about rewarding them for doing something else.

ihsw 6mo ago

How does a state survive if refugees/immigrants are imported en masse and then the state becomes so dysfunctional to such a degree that its male citizens must be conscripted to fight and die for it? Surely this is a recipe for disaster. I would sooner die for my family and my country but I wouldn't lift a finger to save the lives of refugees/immigrants.

petre 6mo ago
You die for your country and the refugees make the state survive. Germany becomes Deutschstan, Köln Dom is converted to a minaret and Hildegard is required to wear a hijab in public at all times, that's how. At least that's probably how Michel Houellebecq would imagine it.
randomNumber7 6mo ago
Why not just leave for another more sane country before that happens? It's for sure what I will do.

Caius-Cosades 6mo ago

Why are those women then allowed to have vote in matters if they are not forced to carry responsibility for their voting behaviour?

randomNumber7 6mo ago
Because we saw what men do in the last thousand years and if women would be in charge everything would be like the paradise /S

dudul 6mo ago

[flagged]