4 ms·

I disagree with probably the majority of Trump's main policy ideas, but I think a strong case can be made that his immigration policies are in the country's bes

I disagree with probably the majority of Trump's main policy ideas, but I think a strong case can be made that his immigration policies are in the country's best interests. Not all of them, but as a whole.

Larrikin 7mo ago
Why do you think that?
- hax0ron3 7mo ago
  Illegal immigration brings masses of people from more corrupt, disordered, and perhaps lower average intelligence societies into the US in conditions that make it hard for even the ones who are capable of assimilation to assimilate. It also constitutes a massive flouting of the law for the benefit of business, which sets a bad precedent and lowers public trust in institutions. It also contributes to rising racial tensions that encourage the growth of ethnic tribalism and weaken trust in liberalism.
  - avidiax 7mo ago
    If you really want to get rid of illegal immigrants, you don't need ICE doing sweeps. Just make them unemployable. Setup an effective employment eligibility system, and require that employers verify the workers in the system before any payment over $100. Collect biometrics from workers and verify against IRS records. Employers that flout this get fines of 10x wages paid, up to N% of revenue, and maybe jailtime for owners and managers that knowingly violate. What we have in the U.S. is a bunch of people and politicians loudly decrying illegal immigration and illegal employment, but enjoying the fruits of that illegal employment while paying a fraction of what legal workers would have to be paid. There's huge appetite for a police state against the little guy, and no appetite for that same police state against business owners and managers.
    - hax0ron3 7mo ago
      I agree that your idea would be better. That said, it is still quite possible that even Trump's immigration approach is overall more good than bad for the country.
      - unsnap_biceps 7mo ago
        It's really not. They're deporting less people than Biden did during the same time[1]. They're spending record amounts of money per person deported as well. I don't disagree that we should be deporting people faster, but this is not the way to accomplish that goal at all. Nor should we be building huge detention facilities. We should be making the process go smoother and faster, not holding people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_in_the_second_Trump_administration#Deportation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_in_the_second_Trum...
        hax0ron3 7mo ago
        Even if Trump's approach is worse than Biden's, which I'm not sure of, that still does not mean it is bad for the country. Counting deportations alone does not count people who decide not to come at all. Also, note that I did not say that we should necessarily be deporting more people. I am actually pretty neutral on illegal immigration. But I am trying to address the question of what is good for the country, which is a different thing from what my personal preferences are.
        Timon3 7mo ago
        > Even if Trump's approach is worse than Biden's, which I'm not sure of, that still does not mean it is bad for the country. But the discussion isn't about whether it's bad, but whether it's in the countries best interest. If you switch to a less effective & more damaging policy compared to your predecessor, it's not in the countries best interest, even if it's (supposedly) better than nothing.
        pfannkuchen 7mo ago
        Net?
  - 9dev 7mo ago
    > perhaps lower average intelligence societies This is nothing but racism. Intelligence is distributed evenly across humanity. On an unrelated note, how high do you think the rate of American citizens with literacy level 1 is?
    - hax0ron3 7mo ago
      Intelligence at least as measured by IQ tests is not distributed evenly across humanity. Intelligence as measured by scientific achievements is also not distributed evenly across humanity. Now, this does not mean that intelligence is necessarily not distributed evenly across humanity. For example, I imagine that Germans in 1 AD probably had about the same innate biological intelligence level as Germans in 1800. Yet Germans in 1 AD had few intellectual achievements, whereas in 1800 were some of the most intellectually achieving people in the world. So clearly there is more going on than just biologically innate intelligence. Yet certainly there is some good reason to believe that some human groups have more innate biological intelligence potential than others. I don't think it's racism to claim this. It would be racism to advocate, for example, for treating a high-performing person like a low-performing person because he comes from a low-performing ethnic group. Which I'm not. Like I said in another comment, my attitude to illegal immigration is neutral. But from the point of view of what is best for the United States as a country, which is different from what I personally want, I think it's probably best to encourage immigration of average-high-intelligence groups rather than average-low-intelligence ones.
      - tptacek 7mo ago
        I don't think you'll be able to provide evidence for the uneven distribution of IQ across nationalities.
  - throw0101c 7mo ago
    > Illegal immigration brings masses of people from more corrupt, disordered […] "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people." — Donald Trump, June 16, 2015 * https://archive.is/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/06/16/theyre-rapists-presidents-trump-campaign-launch-speech-two-years-later-annotated/ https://archive.is/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-f... Never mind that illegal/undocumented immigrants have lower crime and incarceration rates than native-born Americans: * https://www.cato.org/blog/why-do-illegal-immigrants-have-low-crime-rate-twelve-possible-explanations https://www.cato.org/blog/why-do-illegal-immigrants-have-low... * https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014704117 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014704117
InsideOutSanta 7mo ago
Immigration in general is good for a country, and relatively uncontrolled immigration is one of the reasons for America's prior economic strength. Even if you disagree, Trump's policies have not been effective at anything, apart from creating headlines. These same headlines have secondary negative effects for the US, like hurting international tourism.
rapind 7mo ago
What blows my mind is how liberals and progressives (of which I count myself a member) don't see to care that this is the policy that pushed Trump into office. Without it he would have flopped with just his MAGA core. All you need to do to fix illegal immigration is to go after the employers. You know, actually enforce the laws. Streamline it. Declare it a national emergency and put more onerous requirements on businesses to verify legal status. Send ICE to businesses to investigate them instead of kidnapping people. You'll probably find out pretty quickly that agriculture is extremely dependent on illegal labour, but so be it. Bring it into the light and have an actual debate. The current approach is all for show, or at worst, intimidation.
- rootusrootus 7mo ago
  The dems spend a disproportionate amount of effort courting tiny voting blocs (e.g. trans) and immigrants unable to vote at all. It is frustrating. But it does seem to be what their base wants. Keeps the higher moral ground without the irritating responsibility to govern.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
idiotsecant 7mo ago
Immigrants are the lifeblood of America and always have been. Reject them and you lose what literally made America great. Do you think, on average, a native born American is more useful to America than one who moves here?
- hax0ron3 7mo ago
  Currently, probably yes. If American immigration policy was reshaped to favor immigration of people from high-performing societies, then it would be the opposite.
  - idiotsecant 7mo ago
    What color are the people in these 'high performing societies'? I think I have a guess. Did 'high performing societies' build the railroads? Mine the steel? Forge it? Did 'high performing societies' build the culture we enjoy today? Here's a secret that you should know but evidently life has never taught you: people who have to struggle to survive are generally smarter, more vigorous, more honorable people. They understand the toll in sweat and blood that the wrong decision takes. They are exactly who we need. We don't need a nation of pampered trust fund man-children, turning up their delicate noses at everyone not a member of a 'high performing society'.

Larrikin 7mo ago

Why do you think that?

hax0ron3 7mo ago
Illegal immigration brings masses of people from more corrupt, disordered, and perhaps lower average intelligence societies into the US in conditions that make it hard for even the ones who are capable of assimilation to assimilate. It also constitutes a massive flouting of the law for the benefit of business, which sets a bad precedent and lowers public trust in institutions. It also contributes to rising racial tensions that encourage the growth of ethnic tribalism and weaken trust in liberalism.
- avidiax 7mo ago
  If you really want to get rid of illegal immigrants, you don't need ICE doing sweeps. Just make them unemployable. Setup an effective employment eligibility system, and require that employers verify the workers in the system before any payment over $100. Collect biometrics from workers and verify against IRS records. Employers that flout this get fines of 10x wages paid, up to N% of revenue, and maybe jailtime for owners and managers that knowingly violate. What we have in the U.S. is a bunch of people and politicians loudly decrying illegal immigration and illegal employment, but enjoying the fruits of that illegal employment while paying a fraction of what legal workers would have to be paid. There's huge appetite for a police state against the little guy, and no appetite for that same police state against business owners and managers.
  - hax0ron3 7mo ago
    I agree that your idea would be better. That said, it is still quite possible that even Trump's immigration approach is overall more good than bad for the country.
    - unsnap_biceps 7mo ago
      It's really not. They're deporting less people than Biden did during the same time[1]. They're spending record amounts of money per person deported as well. I don't disagree that we should be deporting people faster, but this is not the way to accomplish that goal at all. Nor should we be building huge detention facilities. We should be making the process go smoother and faster, not holding people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_in_the_second_Trump_administration#Deportation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_in_the_second_Trum...
      - hax0ron3 7mo ago
        Even if Trump's approach is worse than Biden's, which I'm not sure of, that still does not mean it is bad for the country. Counting deportations alone does not count people who decide not to come at all. Also, note that I did not say that we should necessarily be deporting more people. I am actually pretty neutral on illegal immigration. But I am trying to address the question of what is good for the country, which is a different thing from what my personal preferences are.
        Timon3 7mo ago
        > Even if Trump's approach is worse than Biden's, which I'm not sure of, that still does not mean it is bad for the country. But the discussion isn't about whether it's bad, but whether it's in the countries best interest. If you switch to a less effective & more damaging policy compared to your predecessor, it's not in the countries best interest, even if it's (supposedly) better than nothing.
      - pfannkuchen 7mo ago
        Net?
- 9dev 7mo ago
  > perhaps lower average intelligence societies This is nothing but racism. Intelligence is distributed evenly across humanity. On an unrelated note, how high do you think the rate of American citizens with literacy level 1 is?
  - hax0ron3 7mo ago
    Intelligence at least as measured by IQ tests is not distributed evenly across humanity. Intelligence as measured by scientific achievements is also not distributed evenly across humanity. Now, this does not mean that intelligence is necessarily not distributed evenly across humanity. For example, I imagine that Germans in 1 AD probably had about the same innate biological intelligence level as Germans in 1800. Yet Germans in 1 AD had few intellectual achievements, whereas in 1800 were some of the most intellectually achieving people in the world. So clearly there is more going on than just biologically innate intelligence. Yet certainly there is some good reason to believe that some human groups have more innate biological intelligence potential than others. I don't think it's racism to claim this. It would be racism to advocate, for example, for treating a high-performing person like a low-performing person because he comes from a low-performing ethnic group. Which I'm not. Like I said in another comment, my attitude to illegal immigration is neutral. But from the point of view of what is best for the United States as a country, which is different from what I personally want, I think it's probably best to encourage immigration of average-high-intelligence groups rather than average-low-intelligence ones.
    - tptacek 7mo ago
      I don't think you'll be able to provide evidence for the uneven distribution of IQ across nationalities.
- throw0101c 7mo ago
  > Illegal immigration brings masses of people from more corrupt, disordered […] "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people." — Donald Trump, June 16, 2015 * https://archive.is/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/06/16/theyre-rapists-presidents-trump-campaign-launch-speech-two-years-later-annotated/ https://archive.is/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-f... Never mind that illegal/undocumented immigrants have lower crime and incarceration rates than native-born Americans: * https://www.cato.org/blog/why-do-illegal-immigrants-have-low-crime-rate-twelve-possible-explanations https://www.cato.org/blog/why-do-illegal-immigrants-have-low... * https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014704117 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014704117

InsideOutSanta 7mo ago

Immigration in general is good for a country, and relatively uncontrolled immigration is one of the reasons for America's prior economic strength. Even if you disagree, Trump's policies have not been effective at anything, apart from creating headlines. These same headlines have secondary negative effects for the US, like hurting international tourism.

rapind 7mo ago

What blows my mind is how liberals and progressives (of which I count myself a member) don't see to care that this is the policy that pushed Trump into office. Without it he would have flopped with just his MAGA core. All you need to do to fix illegal immigration is to go after the employers. You know, actually enforce the laws. Streamline it. Declare it a national emergency and put more onerous requirements on businesses to verify legal status. Send ICE to businesses to investigate them instead of kidnapping people. You'll probably find out pretty quickly that agriculture is extremely dependent on illegal labour, but so be it. Bring it into the light and have an actual debate. The current approach is all for show, or at worst, intimidation.

rootusrootus 7mo ago
The dems spend a disproportionate amount of effort courting tiny voting blocs (e.g. trans) and immigrants unable to vote at all. It is frustrating. But it does seem to be what their base wants. Keeps the higher moral ground without the irritating responsibility to govern.

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

idiotsecant 7mo ago

Immigrants are the lifeblood of America and always have been. Reject them and you lose what literally made America great. Do you think, on average, a native born American is more useful to America than one who moves here?

hax0ron3 7mo ago
Currently, probably yes. If American immigration policy was reshaped to favor immigration of people from high-performing societies, then it would be the opposite.
- idiotsecant 7mo ago
  What color are the people in these 'high performing societies'? I think I have a guess. Did 'high performing societies' build the railroads? Mine the steel? Forge it? Did 'high performing societies' build the culture we enjoy today? Here's a secret that you should know but evidently life has never taught you: people who have to struggle to survive are generally smarter, more vigorous, more honorable people. They understand the toll in sweat and blood that the wrong decision takes. They are exactly who we need. We don't need a nation of pampered trust fund man-children, turning up their delicate noses at everyone not a member of a 'high performing society'.