4 ms·

I live in a northern climate and I know multiple people who are net zero with solar+basic battery. Proper insulation and good windows go a very long way. For i

by PyWoody 6mo ago

I live in a northern climate and I know multiple people who are net zero with solar+basic battery. Proper insulation and good windows go a very long way. For instance, I set my heat to 66F during the day and 60F at night. When I wake up in the morning, the register is usually still above 60F.

HoldOnAMinute 6mo ago
Those brutally cold temperatures are really not compatible with most human beings
- declan_roberts 6mo ago
  Weird because a significant number of humans beings in the USA immigrated at some point from a country in this climate.
mtoner23 6mo ago
Net zero. But not effectively zero. They sell energy during the day when no one needs it and buy it an night when we all need it. If we all switched to solar and heat pumps there would be blackouts and an energy crisis
- PyWoody 6mo ago
  What? They store the surplus in their batteries during the day and use it at night. I genuinely do not understand why people are so afraid of solar. It's baffling.
  - blackcatsec 6mo ago
    They've fallen victim to a catastrophically easy scare tactic, unfortunately. "The sun only shines during the day therefore solar is bad!" Dumb, but easy.
    - declan_roberts 6mo ago
      And in my experience as someone who is actually trying to DO something, is exactly right. But to be clear, it's less about night vs day and more about summer vs winter.
      - caseysoftware 6mo ago
        ^ This. I had a 20kWh array and 18kWh of batteries in Texas and it was GREAT in the summer. It'd start charging by 6am and be charged by 9am, even with simultaneous usage. Then we'd live off solar for the day (even with HVAC), go back on batteries around 9pm and they'd be out around 4am. No problem. But during an overcast winter day, the stack wouldn't get power until 8/9, not make it to 50%, start discharging by 4/5pm, and be out by 10/11pm. It would easily be 8-10 hours where we were wholly dependent on the grid. Not a problem, just a constraint to acknowledge and plan for.
        blackcatsec 6mo ago
        To be fair, though, electricity is usually cheaper at night. So discharging solar charged batteries well into the evening is still a net benefit for the grid (and your wallet).
    - applied_heat 6mo ago
      In Toronto there is only daylight for 9 hours in winter Yes surely some days are cloudy So some days you get 5% capacity factor, and need some other energy source as well So it harms the economics of the venture Look at the profitability of companies building utility scale solar farms, they cost 100 million and the company hopes to get a 10% return and pay a 3% dividend. They still have to contend with moving parts for tracking the angle of the sun, fans on inverters, contactors, clearing snow, mowing grass, site drainage, tornadoes etc, so sometimes it is not as easy as it sounds All for a 7%? Why shouldn’t they just buy the s&p 500 and call it a day
  - juleiie 6mo ago
    Solar generates like 1/10 in the northern countries for half of the year. No batteries currently can solve this. The problem with global ecological regulations is they never differentiate between countries on the equator or 30th parallel with countries around 60. They expect everyone to only run on sun and wind. It isn't possible. There has to be at least nuclear which is ridiculously expensive. It's generally not an easy problem to solve otherwise it wouldn't be a problem anymore. First sensible thing to do is to relax the expectations for countries like Poland that have no good way to compete with other countries energy wise because of geographical location that noone chooses. It is extremely unfair to treat everyone the same even though every country has different energy resources.
    - coryrc 6mo ago
      There's a solution that costs less than fossil fuels, but it's a coordination problem and the USA is structurally unable to solve those anymore. I guess the Soviet Union wins the last laugh? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community
  - chongli 6mo ago
    Because the sun doesn't shine every day. Where I live, the sky is overcast 90% of the time in the winter. You can't charge the batteries during the summer and run them all winter.
- majoe 6mo ago
  Some thoughts on why I think this is wrong: If no one needs it during the day, they can't sell it. That's not how markets work. Energy that is generated, needs to be consumed or else the grid breaks down. These two facts together mean, that the energy they sell is needed and used. Albeit they could generate and sell even more energy, if the energy could be stored or if the load could be shaped accordingly. The latter is a great way to lower energy costs. Energy consumption during the night is low. So low, that night time electricity prices, which are lower than the daytime prices, are still a thing. Heat pumps are an opportunity for load shaping. Buildings can be heated, when electricity is abundant and heated a few degree over the target temperature, if needed. The heat is stored inside the building and needs less heating during the night. That works quite well, especially here in Europe were buildings generally have good insulation and are made of brick, which can store a lot of heat.
onetokeoverthe 6mo ago
[dead]
chongli 6mo ago
66F is ridiculously cold to me, and I live in Canada where it can reach -40(F or C) in the winter. I would find that very uncomfortable and elderly people would be shivering constantly and highly susceptible to respiratory illness. I have a modern cold climate air source heat pump which essentially needs to run 24 hours a day to maintain a stable 20C when the outdoor temperatures reach -15C. Below that, the heat pump shuts off and the furnace kicks in to provide emergency heating. My thermostat is a modern one with full time-of-day and day-of-week scheduling for heating and cooling, but it doesn't matter because the heat pump by itself is not able to swing the temperature up (by even half a degree) on its own, so this causes the furnace to kick in every time the schedule calls for a higher temperature, defeating the entire purpose of time-of-day scheduling. I will also add that where I live (Southern Ontario) the sky is overcast 90% of the time during the winter. Solar panels, even somehow free of snow and ice, are going to produce almost nothing on those dark days. Add in the need to keep the panels free of snow and ice (presumably with heating, since nobody is going to be climbing around on their roof in the winter), and you'd likely reach energy net-negative trying to make use of them.
- PyWoody 6mo ago
  I actually live on the same latitude as Ontario so -40F/C is not unusual. Add in windchill, and it gets even more common, given my windy location. Yeah, I understand I'm probably an outlier at 66F. I was using the numbers more to point out how little a house temperature will drop with good windows and insulation.
  - chongli 6mo ago
    What year was your house built? Do you have a whole-house humidifier? My house was built in the late 1980s. It has decent insulation but not amazing. It still needs a lot of heating when temperatures plunge below -15C. I do not have a whole-house humidifier. I had one with my previous furnace but it had issues with mold in the filter and clogging of the condensate pump.
- dnemmers 6mo ago
  “elderly people would be shivering constantly and highly susceptible to respiratory illness.” At 66 degrees F? That sounds like put a sweater on if you’re chilly, not some near death extreme. Any evidence that such an ‘extreme’ would cause issues?
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
aidenn0 6mo ago
At 66F, I struggle to do job because my fingers go numb and I can't touch-type well. If others have that problem, a small heat-lamp (like for a reptile cage) can locally heat just the area above the keyboard cheaply.
- declan_roberts 6mo ago
  I use a desktop heating pad under my keyboard. It's an Apple thin, metal keyboard, which works really well for this. It uses about 20w.
detourdog 6mo ago
In the northwest corner of Massachusetts I converted an old school into an apartment building. I installed 2" of polystyrene on the outside and about a foot of cellulose in the ceilings. We relay on heatpumps for HVAC. I also installed a 50kW solar array. We don't start paying for heating until Nov/Dec and stop paying in Apr/May. Our Electric usage goes through the roof in Jan/Feb/Mar. Our weak point is that the exterior walls are about 40% windows. I hope to install better thermal shades which will cost about $80k. We also last fall installed a solar thermal array to for hot water and heat the hallway which is radiant floor. I would like to think we could achieve net-zero but I will likely need to expand the solar array by about 200%. Thermal curtains are more effective than good windows. Good windows are minimally helpful.
- PyWoody 6mo ago
  Thermal curtains are a godsend. I remember reading about your journey and I hope it works out! I think it'd be money well spent. In my last house, I replaced single pane windows with properly installed, sealed, and insulated double-hungs and it practically cut my heat bill in half. I agree that modern window to modern window replacement probably won't get you much, though.
  - detourdog 6mo ago
    Thank you for the encouragement. I have all the units rented. I'm now trying to balance upgrades to reduce energy costs vs. maintaining a cash horde.
tsoukase 6mo ago
These temperatures are non negotiable by my wife. Women will burn the planet.

by PyWoody 6mo ago

HoldOnAMinute 6mo ago

Those brutally cold temperatures are really not compatible with most human beings

declan_roberts 6mo ago
Weird because a significant number of humans beings in the USA immigrated at some point from a country in this climate.

mtoner23 6mo ago

Net zero. But not effectively zero. They sell energy during the day when no one needs it and buy it an night when we all need it. If we all switched to solar and heat pumps there would be blackouts and an energy crisis

PyWoody 6mo ago
What? They store the surplus in their batteries during the day and use it at night. I genuinely do not understand why people are so afraid of solar. It's baffling.
- blackcatsec 6mo ago
  They've fallen victim to a catastrophically easy scare tactic, unfortunately. "The sun only shines during the day therefore solar is bad!" Dumb, but easy.
  - declan_roberts 6mo ago
    And in my experience as someone who is actually trying to DO something, is exactly right. But to be clear, it's less about night vs day and more about summer vs winter.
    - caseysoftware 6mo ago
      ^ This. I had a 20kWh array and 18kWh of batteries in Texas and it was GREAT in the summer. It'd start charging by 6am and be charged by 9am, even with simultaneous usage. Then we'd live off solar for the day (even with HVAC), go back on batteries around 9pm and they'd be out around 4am. No problem. But during an overcast winter day, the stack wouldn't get power until 8/9, not make it to 50%, start discharging by 4/5pm, and be out by 10/11pm. It would easily be 8-10 hours where we were wholly dependent on the grid. Not a problem, just a constraint to acknowledge and plan for.
      - blackcatsec 6mo ago
        To be fair, though, electricity is usually cheaper at night. So discharging solar charged batteries well into the evening is still a net benefit for the grid (and your wallet).
  - applied_heat 6mo ago
    In Toronto there is only daylight for 9 hours in winter Yes surely some days are cloudy So some days you get 5% capacity factor, and need some other energy source as well So it harms the economics of the venture Look at the profitability of companies building utility scale solar farms, they cost 100 million and the company hopes to get a 10% return and pay a 3% dividend. They still have to contend with moving parts for tracking the angle of the sun, fans on inverters, contactors, clearing snow, mowing grass, site drainage, tornadoes etc, so sometimes it is not as easy as it sounds All for a 7%? Why shouldn’t they just buy the s&p 500 and call it a day
- juleiie 6mo ago
  Solar generates like 1/10 in the northern countries for half of the year. No batteries currently can solve this. The problem with global ecological regulations is they never differentiate between countries on the equator or 30th parallel with countries around 60. They expect everyone to only run on sun and wind. It isn't possible. There has to be at least nuclear which is ridiculously expensive. It's generally not an easy problem to solve otherwise it wouldn't be a problem anymore. First sensible thing to do is to relax the expectations for countries like Poland that have no good way to compete with other countries energy wise because of geographical location that noone chooses. It is extremely unfair to treat everyone the same even though every country has different energy resources.
  - coryrc 6mo ago
    There's a solution that costs less than fossil fuels, but it's a coordination problem and the USA is structurally unable to solve those anymore. I guess the Soviet Union wins the last laugh? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community
- chongli 6mo ago
  Because the sun doesn't shine every day. Where I live, the sky is overcast 90% of the time in the winter. You can't charge the batteries during the summer and run them all winter.
majoe 6mo ago
Some thoughts on why I think this is wrong: If no one needs it during the day, they can't sell it. That's not how markets work. Energy that is generated, needs to be consumed or else the grid breaks down. These two facts together mean, that the energy they sell is needed and used. Albeit they could generate and sell even more energy, if the energy could be stored or if the load could be shaped accordingly. The latter is a great way to lower energy costs. Energy consumption during the night is low. So low, that night time electricity prices, which are lower than the daytime prices, are still a thing. Heat pumps are an opportunity for load shaping. Buildings can be heated, when electricity is abundant and heated a few degree over the target temperature, if needed. The heat is stored inside the building and needs less heating during the night. That works quite well, especially here in Europe were buildings generally have good insulation and are made of brick, which can store a lot of heat.

onetokeoverthe 6mo ago

[dead]

chongli 6mo ago

66F is ridiculously cold to me, and I live in Canada where it can reach -40(F or C) in the winter. I would find that very uncomfortable and elderly people would be shivering constantly and highly susceptible to respiratory illness. I have a modern cold climate air source heat pump which essentially needs to run 24 hours a day to maintain a stable 20C when the outdoor temperatures reach -15C. Below that, the heat pump shuts off and the furnace kicks in to provide emergency heating. My thermostat is a modern one with full time-of-day and day-of-week scheduling for heating and cooling, but it doesn't matter because the heat pump by itself is not able to swing the temperature up (by even half a degree) on its own, so this causes the furnace to kick in every time the schedule calls for a higher temperature, defeating the entire purpose of time-of-day scheduling. I will also add that where I live (Southern Ontario) the sky is overcast 90% of the time during the winter. Solar panels, even somehow free of snow and ice, are going to produce almost nothing on those dark days. Add in the need to keep the panels free of snow and ice (presumably with heating, since nobody is going to be climbing around on their roof in the winter), and you'd likely reach energy net-negative trying to make use of them.

PyWoody 6mo ago
I actually live on the same latitude as Ontario so -40F/C is not unusual. Add in windchill, and it gets even more common, given my windy location. Yeah, I understand I'm probably an outlier at 66F. I was using the numbers more to point out how little a house temperature will drop with good windows and insulation.
- chongli 6mo ago
  What year was your house built? Do you have a whole-house humidifier? My house was built in the late 1980s. It has decent insulation but not amazing. It still needs a lot of heating when temperatures plunge below -15C. I do not have a whole-house humidifier. I had one with my previous furnace but it had issues with mold in the filter and clogging of the condensate pump.
dnemmers 6mo ago
“elderly people would be shivering constantly and highly susceptible to respiratory illness.” At 66 degrees F? That sounds like put a sweater on if you’re chilly, not some near death extreme. Any evidence that such an ‘extreme’ would cause issues?

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

aidenn0 6mo ago

At 66F, I struggle to do job because my fingers go numb and I can't touch-type well. If others have that problem, a small heat-lamp (like for a reptile cage) can locally heat just the area above the keyboard cheaply.

declan_roberts 6mo ago
I use a desktop heating pad under my keyboard. It's an Apple thin, metal keyboard, which works really well for this. It uses about 20w.

detourdog 6mo ago

In the northwest corner of Massachusetts I converted an old school into an apartment building. I installed 2" of polystyrene on the outside and about a foot of cellulose in the ceilings. We relay on heatpumps for HVAC. I also installed a 50kW solar array. We don't start paying for heating until Nov/Dec and stop paying in Apr/May. Our Electric usage goes through the roof in Jan/Feb/Mar. Our weak point is that the exterior walls are about 40% windows. I hope to install better thermal shades which will cost about $80k. We also last fall installed a solar thermal array to for hot water and heat the hallway which is radiant floor. I would like to think we could achieve net-zero but I will likely need to expand the solar array by about 200%. Thermal curtains are more effective than good windows. Good windows are minimally helpful.

PyWoody 6mo ago
Thermal curtains are a godsend. I remember reading about your journey and I hope it works out! I think it'd be money well spent. In my last house, I replaced single pane windows with properly installed, sealed, and insulated double-hungs and it practically cut my heat bill in half. I agree that modern window to modern window replacement probably won't get you much, though.
- detourdog 6mo ago
  Thank you for the encouragement. I have all the units rented. I'm now trying to balance upgrades to reduce energy costs vs. maintaining a cash horde.

tsoukase 6mo ago

These temperatures are non negotiable by my wife. Women will burn the planet.