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> In a way, for ProtonMail (in your browser) to be "end-to-end encrypted", you have to trust Proton. But that kind of defeats the purpose of end-to-end encrypti

> In a way, for ProtonMail (in your browser) to be "end-to-end encrypted", you have to trust Proton. But that kind of defeats the purpose of end-to-end encryption. Yes, and every VPN in the world (that isn't self-hosted) relies on trust that they won't share your info, not even your fingerprint - which defeats the purpose of VPNs. It's very hard to have perfect security. OK, impossible.

palata 7mo ago
Sure, it's always a tradeoff. There is no "perfect" security, but there is "better" and "worse" for the threat model. My point here is that when you run a webapp from a browser, you have to trust the server. When you run a program that you download on your system, it's easier to check that it doesn't change and to make sure that others get the same one.
- mapontosevenths 7mo ago
  Exactly, as with all security you have to ask what the threat model you're defending against is and what you're willing to pay. If it's "Google knows too much and I want an alternative" Proton is great, cheap, and convienent. If it' "my own government might kill me" then it might be time to think about self hosting.
  - palata 7mo ago
    > "Google knows too much and I want an alternative" Proton is great, cheap, and convienent. I think that Proton does a good job with the suite (docs, sheets, calendar, password manager), and I believe they have a good VPN (for what we may expect from a VPN). Interestingly, Proton started with ProtonMail, and I find it's the least convincing of their products: 1. As an individual, writing from your ProtonMail account to (probably) someone on GMail doesn't change anything. 2. As a company, writing from Proton to Proton is a good idea, but there is no need for end-to-end encryption: just choose a mail provider you trust, I guess? 3. The ProtonMail end-to-end encryption in the web browser defeats the purpose of E2EE: you have to trust Proton anyway, because they serve the code every time your employees load the page.

palata 7mo ago

Sure, it's always a tradeoff. There is no "perfect" security, but there is "better" and "worse" for the threat model. My point here is that when you run a webapp from a browser, you have to trust the server. When you run a program that you download on your system, it's easier to check that it doesn't change and to make sure that others get the same one.

mapontosevenths 7mo ago
Exactly, as with all security you have to ask what the threat model you're defending against is and what you're willing to pay. If it's "Google knows too much and I want an alternative" Proton is great, cheap, and convienent. If it' "my own government might kill me" then it might be time to think about self hosting.
- palata 7mo ago
  > "Google knows too much and I want an alternative" Proton is great, cheap, and convienent. I think that Proton does a good job with the suite (docs, sheets, calendar, password manager), and I believe they have a good VPN (for what we may expect from a VPN). Interestingly, Proton started with ProtonMail, and I find it's the least convincing of their products: 1. As an individual, writing from your ProtonMail account to (probably) someone on GMail doesn't change anything. 2. As a company, writing from Proton to Proton is a good idea, but there is no need for end-to-end encryption: just choose a mail provider you trust, I guess? 3. The ProtonMail end-to-end encryption in the web browser defeats the purpose of E2EE: you have to trust Proton anyway, because they serve the code every time your employees load the page.