6 ms·

This is insane. I dont know who takes decisions in Gnome but has to be fired immediately. Gnome 2 was a nice and fast DE, it ran anywhere, it was great. They ma

by aortega 14y ago

This is insane. I dont know who takes decisions in Gnome but has to be fired immediately. Gnome 2 was a nice and fast DE, it ran anywhere, it was great. They made so many bad decisions with Gnome 3, stopped caring for the user long ago and now they code only from themselves.

aw3c2 14y ago
Comment 13 on http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rottin... suggests Red Hat is doing Embrace, Extend and Extinguish ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish ).
- bkor 14y ago
  There are only 2 people of Red Hat on the GNOME release team (team is 9 at the moment). But yeah, due to the sheer amount of manpower that Red Hat spends on maintaining various software projects, their influence of course is pretty great. But they still have to convince the other GNOME developer community. Decisions are pretty often made in consensus, so they don't override things. Note that the blog you are linking to gets some things wrong. You have to see some things in context. E.g. a designer is of course going to have a bit of limited view. The Red Hat people on the release team sometimes "block" a decision made by other Red Hat people; seems like normal commity behaviour to me. Though of course if they all work together, their idea of the best way forward is going to be similar.
bkor 14y ago
I was part of the decision. I'm not sure if you get the concept of volunteers. My influence and decision abilities is not based on "company ideas" as you seem to think. Meaning: I wasn't hired, I cannot be fired.
- PommeDeTerre 14y ago
  If I may ask, what is it that drives you to volunteer to work on a project that has so much negativity surrounding it these days? I've found GNOME 3 to be a very interesting case study. Here we have what was once a very successful project that has gone through a very rough patch lately. Many existing users aren't happy with what it has become, and although changes are happening, they only seem to be provoking more and more negativity. I can't recall any GNOME 3-related news where the sentiment was positive. At best, it's a sense of "well, things aren't getting any worse!" And while I don't have any numbers, I gather that GNOME 3 isn't really attracting all that many new users, either. The future doesn't exactly look bright. Based on the comments here regarding this decision, for example, it clearly isn't what the user community wants. There seems to be much more excitement and positivity around projects like MATE and Cinnamon, which basically go against what the GNOME team is doing. I don't mean to be insulting, but I have a very difficult time understanding why anyone would still want to be publicly associated with the GNOME project these days.
  - snogglethorpe 14y ago
    Er, on the other hand, many people actually like gnome 3 (myself included), but it's typically the people who don't like something that are the most noticeable, because they complain a lot. I.e. "I saw lots of complaints on HN" is not a particularly good measure of anything...
    - Nursie 14y ago
      But there are a lot of complaints in a lot of different places. I'm sure complainers are probably over-represented in public fora, but not to the extent you seem to think.
    - PommeDeTerre 14y ago
      I don't doubt that some people like GNOME 3. I'm just not convinced that, given all of the feedback that I've seen, that this is a very large group of people. I would not be at all surprised if the number of people who like GNOME 3 is much smaller than the number of people who have, silently or otherwise, switched to Xfce, KDE, or some other environment. Like Nursie mentioned in another comment, the negative sentiment toward GNOME 3 isn't just present here. It arises essentially wherever GNOME 3 is discussed. Having followed many open source projects for many years, I've never seen anywhere near this level of outright hatred on such a scale. Yes, disagreement is common, but when it comes to GNOME 3 it's far beyond that.
- abenga 14y ago
  Just to ensure that complaints are not the only opinions developers like you hear, let me tell you that I use Gnome Shell everyday, and I love it. I migrated a lot of the people in our office (a small Actuarial firm w. ~12 people) to it and everyone likes it.
  - Andrex 14y ago
    Same, I'm using it right now on my work laptop and I wouldn't dream of using another desktop environment. It's fast, fluid, and getting more functional with each release.
- buster 14y ago
  Drop the fallback mode if it means better quality of the rest. Seriously, Gnome Shell runs fine on my Intel integrated graphics, i suppose it runs fine on nvidia and amd as well, so why fallback mode anyway. How about communicating to distributions to fallback to gnome2 or xfce or something similar as a recommendation?
  - Rovanion 14y ago
    It may run fine on many, but it runs horrible on so many others. Running both Nvidia and ATI binary drivers often result in absolutely horrid performance with changes to the UI often not being rendered until after the animations are over.
    - truncate 14y ago
      Apart from that, GDM itself performs horribly. I can almost always see a lag. Shouldn't happen on core i 2nd Gen atleast!
    - bkor 14y ago
      Obviously that the performance is sometimes absolutely terrible is known. I'd wish it was not like that. Llvmpipe is not a good solution, nor are bad drivers. But IMO bad drivers are unacceptable. Why do we accept such sorry state? We had fallback mode for various years, as well as the need of GNOME 3 and Unity. Yet various drivers still are terrible. IMO I'd rather take the "my way or highway" approach: a driver is just plain not good enough. The hardware can do way more. Time to get your driver into the year 2005+.
  - Nursie 14y ago
    "How about communicating to distributions to fallback to gnome2" Because Gnome 2 is officially deprecated and abandoned. The G3 team pretty much deliberately set out to destroy it and make the new stuff as incompatible as possible AFAICT. MATE is becoming a possibility but debian don't seem to want to take it on. Xfce, yes, that works fine.
    - bkor 14y ago
- stusmall 14y ago
  I just wanted to be another person to chime and say I enjoy gnome3. Sometimes a good product is best when you build it for yourself instead of trying to please others. Thanks!
- aortega 14y ago
  > Meaning: I wasn't hired, I cannot be fired. Oh I see the problem then. Dude please reconsider it. Do you ever tried to run that stupid LLVM-pipe stuff in a VM? it's impossible, and I have a nice machine. ARM? MIPS? Sparc? forget it.
  - bkor 14y ago
    Show some respect and you'll get respect back. Yes, I've used it in a VM. Yes, I know about arm and so on. Suggest to focus more on being nicer towards others, less about questioning things where the answer can easily be found. If you're not courteous, why would anyone spoon feed you answers?
    - aortega 14y ago
      Yes I was kind of an asshole. Sorry about that. I understand that you are working for free, I really appreciate the work that you people do, and gnome 2 was great. Actually from all the new DEs, unity, KDE, etc. I still prefer the look of the gnome shell. The problem is, I can't run it! too slow, need too much kernel support, etc. I don't need any answers, I just need the damn thing to work in my OpenBSD and my beagleboard the way gnome 2 did.
JulianMorrison 14y ago
Mate Desktop is a fork/rename/continuation of Gnome 2.

by aortega 14y ago

aw3c2 14y ago

Comment 13 on http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rottin... suggests Red Hat is doing Embrace, Extend and Extinguish ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish ).

bkor 14y ago
There are only 2 people of Red Hat on the GNOME release team (team is 9 at the moment). But yeah, due to the sheer amount of manpower that Red Hat spends on maintaining various software projects, their influence of course is pretty great. But they still have to convince the other GNOME developer community. Decisions are pretty often made in consensus, so they don't override things. Note that the blog you are linking to gets some things wrong. You have to see some things in context. E.g. a designer is of course going to have a bit of limited view. The Red Hat people on the release team sometimes "block" a decision made by other Red Hat people; seems like normal commity behaviour to me. Though of course if they all work together, their idea of the best way forward is going to be similar.

bkor 14y ago

I was part of the decision. I'm not sure if you get the concept of volunteers. My influence and decision abilities is not based on "company ideas" as you seem to think. Meaning: I wasn't hired, I cannot be fired.

PommeDeTerre 14y ago
If I may ask, what is it that drives you to volunteer to work on a project that has so much negativity surrounding it these days? I've found GNOME 3 to be a very interesting case study. Here we have what was once a very successful project that has gone through a very rough patch lately. Many existing users aren't happy with what it has become, and although changes are happening, they only seem to be provoking more and more negativity. I can't recall any GNOME 3-related news where the sentiment was positive. At best, it's a sense of "well, things aren't getting any worse!" And while I don't have any numbers, I gather that GNOME 3 isn't really attracting all that many new users, either. The future doesn't exactly look bright. Based on the comments here regarding this decision, for example, it clearly isn't what the user community wants. There seems to be much more excitement and positivity around projects like MATE and Cinnamon, which basically go against what the GNOME team is doing. I don't mean to be insulting, but I have a very difficult time understanding why anyone would still want to be publicly associated with the GNOME project these days.
- snogglethorpe 14y ago
  Er, on the other hand, many people actually like gnome 3 (myself included), but it's typically the people who don't like something that are the most noticeable, because they complain a lot. I.e. "I saw lots of complaints on HN" is not a particularly good measure of anything...
  - Nursie 14y ago
    But there are a lot of complaints in a lot of different places. I'm sure complainers are probably over-represented in public fora, but not to the extent you seem to think.
  - PommeDeTerre 14y ago
    I don't doubt that some people like GNOME 3. I'm just not convinced that, given all of the feedback that I've seen, that this is a very large group of people. I would not be at all surprised if the number of people who like GNOME 3 is much smaller than the number of people who have, silently or otherwise, switched to Xfce, KDE, or some other environment. Like Nursie mentioned in another comment, the negative sentiment toward GNOME 3 isn't just present here. It arises essentially wherever GNOME 3 is discussed. Having followed many open source projects for many years, I've never seen anywhere near this level of outright hatred on such a scale. Yes, disagreement is common, but when it comes to GNOME 3 it's far beyond that.
abenga 14y ago
Just to ensure that complaints are not the only opinions developers like you hear, let me tell you that I use Gnome Shell everyday, and I love it. I migrated a lot of the people in our office (a small Actuarial firm w. ~12 people) to it and everyone likes it.
- Andrex 14y ago
  Same, I'm using it right now on my work laptop and I wouldn't dream of using another desktop environment. It's fast, fluid, and getting more functional with each release.
buster 14y ago
Drop the fallback mode if it means better quality of the rest. Seriously, Gnome Shell runs fine on my Intel integrated graphics, i suppose it runs fine on nvidia and amd as well, so why fallback mode anyway. How about communicating to distributions to fallback to gnome2 or xfce or something similar as a recommendation?
- Rovanion 14y ago
  It may run fine on many, but it runs horrible on so many others. Running both Nvidia and ATI binary drivers often result in absolutely horrid performance with changes to the UI often not being rendered until after the animations are over.
  - truncate 14y ago
    Apart from that, GDM itself performs horribly. I can almost always see a lag. Shouldn't happen on core i 2nd Gen atleast!
  - bkor 14y ago
    Obviously that the performance is sometimes absolutely terrible is known. I'd wish it was not like that. Llvmpipe is not a good solution, nor are bad drivers. But IMO bad drivers are unacceptable. Why do we accept such sorry state? We had fallback mode for various years, as well as the need of GNOME 3 and Unity. Yet various drivers still are terrible. IMO I'd rather take the "my way or highway" approach: a driver is just plain not good enough. The hardware can do way more. Time to get your driver into the year 2005+.
- Nursie 14y ago
  "How about communicating to distributions to fallback to gnome2" Because Gnome 2 is officially deprecated and abandoned. The G3 team pretty much deliberately set out to destroy it and make the new stuff as incompatible as possible AFAICT. MATE is becoming a possibility but debian don't seem to want to take it on. Xfce, yes, that works fine.
  - bkor 14y ago
stusmall 14y ago
I just wanted to be another person to chime and say I enjoy gnome3. Sometimes a good product is best when you build it for yourself instead of trying to please others. Thanks!
aortega 14y ago
> Meaning: I wasn't hired, I cannot be fired. Oh I see the problem then. Dude please reconsider it. Do you ever tried to run that stupid LLVM-pipe stuff in a VM? it's impossible, and I have a nice machine. ARM? MIPS? Sparc? forget it.
- bkor 14y ago
  Show some respect and you'll get respect back. Yes, I've used it in a VM. Yes, I know about arm and so on. Suggest to focus more on being nicer towards others, less about questioning things where the answer can easily be found. If you're not courteous, why would anyone spoon feed you answers?
  - aortega 14y ago
    Yes I was kind of an asshole. Sorry about that. I understand that you are working for free, I really appreciate the work that you people do, and gnome 2 was great. Actually from all the new DEs, unity, KDE, etc. I still prefer the look of the gnome shell. The problem is, I can't run it! too slow, need too much kernel support, etc. I don't need any answers, I just need the damn thing to work in my OpenBSD and my beagleboard the way gnome 2 did.

JulianMorrison 14y ago

Mate Desktop is a fork/rename/continuation of Gnome 2.