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After Proton has repeatedly turned over users of their email account to law enforcement, always with many excuses, their claims about no ability for any governm

by pogue 6mo ago

After Proton has repeatedly turned over users of their email account to law enforcement, always with many excuses, their claims about no ability for any government to see what's going on on their network ran very hollow. I know Brave has offered their talk video conferencing service for awhile, but I don't know if any serious network analysis has been performed on it. https://talk.brave.com/ https://talk.brave.com/ For document collaboration, I'm not aware of much else that's private/encrypted (etc) however. https://www.privacyguides.org/en/document-collaboration/ https://www.privacyguides.org/en/document-collaboration/

mastermage 6mo ago
Privacy and anonymity are not the same. I am fundamentally against spyware that constantly monitors you and reports anything. Because of the constant and pre crime nature of it. On the other hand i am actually not fundamentally against turning over data when independent judges sign a warrant. This is arguably a very tight rope to walk but i think thats the most realistic comporomise between my right to privacy and the right of others to get justice when something is done onto them.
- readthenotes1 6mo ago
  Perhaps you may not remember the US government's tendency to invade privacy for suspicious reasons (that is, at the very least extra-legal and sometimes downright unconstitutional). You mentioned a warrant. I do not believe that has been a required threshold. E.g., https://judiciary.house.gov/media/in-the-news/jordan-biggs-demand-answers-from-fbi-on-widespread-fisa-violations-after https://judiciary.house.gov/media/in-the-news/jordan-biggs-d...
  - mastermage 6mo ago
    I am not American so my lense may be a different one. What I am coming from is basically an extension of the German Laws that Govern the Mail Secret (Briefgeheimnis) which actually is constitutionally enshrined in the German constitution. But has notable exceptions that can be made uppon federal law. The burden for these is supposed to be pretty high. I think this should not happen willy nilly. And if thats the case in the US I am obviously against it. It is a complex multi layered subject because it has to weigh the rights of multiple people against each other.
  - mdhen 6mo ago
    It's absolutely a required threshold in Switzerland
- k__ 6mo ago
  Sadly this is not binary.
  - mastermage 6mo ago
    Its not binary but rather orthogonal.
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
0x3f 6mo ago
I'm always confused by the conspiratorial takes that think there's some service out there _not_ bound by the legal system where it resides. Obviously Proton obeys the law and gives up data when it has to. Where are the services that don't do that? Somalia?
- streetfighter64 6mo ago
  I mean, is it really a conspiracy theory to want or believe that there are services (based in Europe) that don't hand over any and all user data to the USA government when asked? It's probably wrong to believe it to be the case, but just because it's wrong doesn't make it "conspiratorial". It's quite hypocritical of Proton to claim that they protect against government surveillance when they do things like this though [0]. Their legal team has probably ensured they don't claim anything strictly false, but the implication and the reality are wildly different. [0] https://freedom.press/digisec/blog/proton-mail-is-not-for-anonymity/ https://freedom.press/digisec/blog/proton-mail-is-not-for-an...
  - pogue 6mo ago
    Proton's marketing definitely makes it sound like they are fully anonymous and wouldn't even have anything to hand over to law enforcement. Look at the wording they use to describe the product. Proton has always-on end-to-end encryption and zero‑access encryption, meaning even we do not have access to your data. [...] Based in Europe, Proton ensures your data is protected by some of the world’s strongest privacy laws. Because Proton isn’t a US‑based company, we can’t be compelled by laws such as the US CLOUD Act to hand over your data to the US government or terminate your services. [1] [1] https://proton.me/business/blog/proton-workspace https://proton.me/business/blog/proton-workspace Obviously as we have seen, they 100% can and will hand over your data to the US government. Yes, it's in the privacy policy/ToS & they're compiling with local laws. But that's clearly not how that reads. [In 2021, the Switzerland-based vendor provided local police with the IP address and device details of a netizen the cops were trying to identify. That individual – a French climate activist who was already known to police – was later arrested. Shortly after that kerfuffle, Proton removed the claim that it didn't track user IP addresses from its website. Proton has also previously been accused of offering real-time surveillance of users to authorities.] [2] [2] https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/13/infosec_in_brief/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/13/infosec_in_brief/ See also: ProtonMail filters this into its junk folder: New claim it goes out of its way to help cops spy https://www.theregister.com/2019/05/29/protonmail_dismisses_spying/ https://www.theregister.com/2019/05/29/protonmail_dismisses_... A search on your favorite search engine of 'instances where proton has turned over user info to the government' will provide further reading.
niam 6mo ago
When have Proton turned their data over to law enforcement without a Swiss court order?
izacus 6mo ago
What do you mean by "excuse"? What kind of excuse would a company need to comply with the law of it's government?!
Subdivide8452 6mo ago
I think this comment deserves some nuance. Every company has to comply to local laws. Unless you want to run something illegal, at which point it's not a very reliable alternative for all your mail and more. Proton in some cases was forced to turn over whatever they knew of a few accounts, according to Swiss law. They try to obfuscate as much as possible, so they can't turn over complete e-mail conversations. But some info is in there, and they have to turn that over. But (correct me if I'm wrong) they have to only comply to Swiss law, when there's a court order.
wallaBBB 6mo ago
I like to point out often the yellow vests protesters being ratted out by Proton as good example of how misleading their marketing is. French police contacted Swiss police to get the id of the accounts, Swiss told proton to hand over the data. Problem is - under French law, their police would not be able to get that data from local providers. Proton - HK owner, dev team in Bulgaria and marketing with mythical claims of "Swiss company privacy". For a company that is selling essencially trust, they sure are shady as f...
- raverbashing 6mo ago
  Maybe you need to use it over NordVPN to be really secure /s
cromka 6mo ago
Proton takes privacy so seriously that they even took the GitHub Issues section of proton-bridge offline /s

by pogue 6mo ago

mastermage 6mo ago

Privacy and anonymity are not the same. I am fundamentally against spyware that constantly monitors you and reports anything. Because of the constant and pre crime nature of it. On the other hand i am actually not fundamentally against turning over data when independent judges sign a warrant. This is arguably a very tight rope to walk but i think thats the most realistic comporomise between my right to privacy and the right of others to get justice when something is done onto them.

readthenotes1 6mo ago
Perhaps you may not remember the US government's tendency to invade privacy for suspicious reasons (that is, at the very least extra-legal and sometimes downright unconstitutional). You mentioned a warrant. I do not believe that has been a required threshold. E.g., https://judiciary.house.gov/media/in-the-news/jordan-biggs-demand-answers-from-fbi-on-widespread-fisa-violations-after https://judiciary.house.gov/media/in-the-news/jordan-biggs-d...
- mastermage 6mo ago
  I am not American so my lense may be a different one. What I am coming from is basically an extension of the German Laws that Govern the Mail Secret (Briefgeheimnis) which actually is constitutionally enshrined in the German constitution. But has notable exceptions that can be made uppon federal law. The burden for these is supposed to be pretty high. I think this should not happen willy nilly. And if thats the case in the US I am obviously against it. It is a complex multi layered subject because it has to weigh the rights of multiple people against each other.
- mdhen 6mo ago
  It's absolutely a required threshold in Switzerland
k__ 6mo ago
Sadly this is not binary.
- mastermage 6mo ago
  Its not binary but rather orthogonal.

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

0x3f 6mo ago

I'm always confused by the conspiratorial takes that think there's some service out there _not_ bound by the legal system where it resides. Obviously Proton obeys the law and gives up data when it has to. Where are the services that don't do that? Somalia?

streetfighter64 6mo ago
I mean, is it really a conspiracy theory to want or believe that there are services (based in Europe) that don't hand over any and all user data to the USA government when asked? It's probably wrong to believe it to be the case, but just because it's wrong doesn't make it "conspiratorial". It's quite hypocritical of Proton to claim that they protect against government surveillance when they do things like this though [0]. Their legal team has probably ensured they don't claim anything strictly false, but the implication and the reality are wildly different. [0] https://freedom.press/digisec/blog/proton-mail-is-not-for-anonymity/ https://freedom.press/digisec/blog/proton-mail-is-not-for-an...
- pogue 6mo ago
  Proton's marketing definitely makes it sound like they are fully anonymous and wouldn't even have anything to hand over to law enforcement. Look at the wording they use to describe the product. Proton has always-on end-to-end encryption and zero‑access encryption, meaning even we do not have access to your data. [...] Based in Europe, Proton ensures your data is protected by some of the world’s strongest privacy laws. Because Proton isn’t a US‑based company, we can’t be compelled by laws such as the US CLOUD Act to hand over your data to the US government or terminate your services. [1] [1] https://proton.me/business/blog/proton-workspace https://proton.me/business/blog/proton-workspace Obviously as we have seen, they 100% can and will hand over your data to the US government. Yes, it's in the privacy policy/ToS & they're compiling with local laws. But that's clearly not how that reads. [In 2021, the Switzerland-based vendor provided local police with the IP address and device details of a netizen the cops were trying to identify. That individual – a French climate activist who was already known to police – was later arrested. Shortly after that kerfuffle, Proton removed the claim that it didn't track user IP addresses from its website. Proton has also previously been accused of offering real-time surveillance of users to authorities.] [2] [2] https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/13/infosec_in_brief/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/13/infosec_in_brief/ See also: ProtonMail filters this into its junk folder: New claim it goes out of its way to help cops spy https://www.theregister.com/2019/05/29/protonmail_dismisses_spying/ https://www.theregister.com/2019/05/29/protonmail_dismisses_... A search on your favorite search engine of 'instances where proton has turned over user info to the government' will provide further reading.

niam 6mo ago

When have Proton turned their data over to law enforcement without a Swiss court order?

izacus 6mo ago

What do you mean by "excuse"? What kind of excuse would a company need to comply with the law of it's government?!

Subdivide8452 6mo ago

I think this comment deserves some nuance. Every company has to comply to local laws. Unless you want to run something illegal, at which point it's not a very reliable alternative for all your mail and more. Proton in some cases was forced to turn over whatever they knew of a few accounts, according to Swiss law. They try to obfuscate as much as possible, so they can't turn over complete e-mail conversations. But some info is in there, and they have to turn that over. But (correct me if I'm wrong) they have to only comply to Swiss law, when there's a court order.

wallaBBB 6mo ago

I like to point out often the yellow vests protesters being ratted out by Proton as good example of how misleading their marketing is. French police contacted Swiss police to get the id of the accounts, Swiss told proton to hand over the data. Problem is - under French law, their police would not be able to get that data from local providers. Proton - HK owner, dev team in Bulgaria and marketing with mythical claims of "Swiss company privacy". For a company that is selling essencially trust, they sure are shady as f...

raverbashing 6mo ago
Maybe you need to use it over NordVPN to be really secure /s

cromka 6mo ago

Proton takes privacy so seriously that they even took the GitHub Issues section of proton-bridge offline /s