5 ms·

>> France had to nationalize EDF due to the exorbitant cost of their nuclear fleet >That's just wrong. No, it's correct, the total costs of the 2022 bailout wa

by Kon5ole 7mo ago

>> France had to nationalize EDF due to the exorbitant cost of their nuclear fleet >That's just wrong. No, it's correct, the total costs of the 2022 bailout was almost 10bn, and that was to get control over a company that had over 50bn in debt. Furthermore it was discovered that the plants had neglected maintenance that had to be undertaken rightaway, that had nothing to do with the TRV. Of course, the TRV didn't help, it caused a loss of 18bn in 2022 on top of everything else, but things were bad already. So even if the mentioned 5 bn export now was pure profit - which is isn't - it would take 15-20 years to cover the bailout that has already taken place. The 100 billion of investments until 2035 is in addition to that. And they will have to sell their power on markets that will increasingly often have free electricity from solar and wind. How do you pay 1000 educated plant operators when electricity prices are negative? Unfortunately nuclear power isn't the kind of thing you can try and then walk away from when it turns out to be a bad idea. Which is likely the main reason it's still around.

adev_ 7mo ago
> No, it's correct, the total costs of the 2022 bailout was almost 10bn, and that was to get control over a company that had over 50bn in debt. Bailout of 2022 alone was around 22bn€, which was added on top of it the historical debt. Revenue of EDF in 2025 is over 100bn€ to put things into perspective. > Furthermore it was discovered that the plants had neglected maintenance that had to be undertaken rightaway, that had nothing to do with the TRV. That is also wrong. The immediate maintenance in 2022 was related to "corrosion sous contrainte" which has nothing to do with carelessness. It was mainly the French nuclear regulator (ASN) over-reacting to some non-critical cracks find in some pipes. They have themselves said afterward that the immediate actions were not necessary. The actions were overreactive (from EDF side) and the calendar was very unfortunate. > So even if the mentioned 5 bn export now was pure profit - which is isn't - Indeed. Profits in 2025 were currently over 8bn€, so well over 5bn€. 5bn€ just concern the profit made by the exports. This is not hard to understand: Making a profit by selling valuable nuclear energy during evening peak consumption while buying cheap intermittent solar during low consumption time is an easy game. People generally do not understand that Nuclear is a CAPEX game, not an OPEX one. > And they will have to sell their power on markets that will increasingly often have free electricity from solar and wind. How do you pay 1000 educated plant operators when electricity prices are negative? By selling nuclear electricity at 180€/MWh every night when the sun do not shine. (This is the average price, every evening peak this month) Meaning-while, the profitability of solar operators will sink to the ground due to the overcapacity causing negative price during the day as soon as the sun shine. Many of them will die if not state subsidized with public money. > nuclear power isn't the kind of thing you can try and then walk away from when it turns out to be a bad idea It is currently the best low-carbon energy around. And will continue to be for the next 2 decades. The current Co2/kwh emission of France is 27g/kwh. The comparison with country like Germany (397g/kwh) or state like California (190g/kwh) that spend >100Bn$ on renewable speak for itself. I can safely bet that in 15y from now, the French grid will still be greener than the German one.
- natmaka 7mo ago
  > making a profit by selling valuable nuclear energy EDF adjusted economic debt at the beginning of 2026: €81.7 billion After decades of massive help (nationalisations building it, monopoly, gift-loans, debt cancellation... > the profitability of solar operators will sink to the ground due to the overcapacity causing negative price Wait for storage (V2G...) and hydrogen to kick in. > France > Germany France's transition to nuclear power began in 1963 and is now complete. In other countries (Germany...), transitions to renewables began with the advent of their industrial versions, around 2005. The current context makes these transitions more challenging, and they are still underway. Therefore, any comparison of their results, for example, greenhouse gas emissions, must be based not on snapshots (which currently favor France since its transition is complete), but on their progress: speed, costs, impacts, etc. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-intensity-electricity?tab=line&time=2011..latest&country=~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-intensity-electric... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-generation-from-solar-and-wind-compared-to-coal?facet=none&country=~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-generation-fr... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/consumption-based-carbon-intensity?tab=line&country=FRA~DEU&globe=1 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/consumption-based-carbon-... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&stackMode=relative&time=2011..latest&country=FRA~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t...
  - adev_ 7mo ago
    > decades of massive help (nationalisations building it, monopoly, gift-loans, debt cancellation... I start seriously question your intellectual honesty here. - For the last 2 decades, EDF was privatised and give back to the state an average of 2bn€ per year in dividende [1]. That is currently EDF giving to the state, not the opposite. - The monopoly situation in France was ended in 2007. The loi NOME in 2010 even offred to the competitor of EDF an access to nuclear energy at fixed low price [2]. Worth to note that when the Energy crisis spiked in 2022, the same 'competitors' sent back their customers to EDF because they massively increased their price and did not want to follow the TRV. > hydrogen to kick in. Nobody sane of mind and reasonable take hydrogen and Power2Gas seriously in the energy sector: The law of physics simply play against it. The general efficient is low (practically around 50%), the electrolizers strongly hate the spike style usage pattern necessary for a coupling with intermittent energy, and no installations of the required scale has even been tried. The only reason this is still on the table is because it gives the gaz industry a reason to drain public subsidies and some hope to stay relevant. > France's transition to nuclear power began in 1963 and is now complete. Thats also wrong. The Messner plan started in 1974 and France was other 55% of electricity production provided by Nuclear in 1985. It finishes with over 50 reactors in 15 years to cover up more than 70% of the electricity generated [3] The cost of the plan Messmer was estimated at 100bn€ in 2012 money. Germany started their energiewende in 2005 and 20 years later and 400Bn€ burned, they still do have a CO2/kwh intensity 4x higher than France in the 80s. The results are so bad that Germany started to subsidies its own industry to protect them against electricity price increase [4] Again, the results speak for themselves. [1]: https://www.senat.fr/rap/r16-335/r16-3354.html https://www.senat.fr/rap/r16-335/r16-3354.html [2]: https://www.cre.fr/electricite/marche-de-gros-de-lelectricite/acces-regule-a-lelectricite-nucleaire-historique-arenh.html https://www.cre.fr/electricite/marche-de-gros-de-lelectricit... [3]: https://www.sirenergies.com/en/article/history-of-nuclear-power-in-france https://www.sirenergies.com/en/article/history-of-nuclear-po... [4]: https://perspectives.se.com/blog-stream/germany-industrial-electricity-subsidy-relief-today-strategy-for-tomorrow https://perspectives.se.com/blog-stream/germany-industrial-e...

by Kon5ole 7mo ago

adev_ 7mo ago

> No, it's correct, the total costs of the 2022 bailout was almost 10bn, and that was to get control over a company that had over 50bn in debt. Bailout of 2022 alone was around 22bn€, which was added on top of it the historical debt. Revenue of EDF in 2025 is over 100bn€ to put things into perspective. > Furthermore it was discovered that the plants had neglected maintenance that had to be undertaken rightaway, that had nothing to do with the TRV. That is also wrong. The immediate maintenance in 2022 was related to "corrosion sous contrainte" which has nothing to do with carelessness. It was mainly the French nuclear regulator (ASN) over-reacting to some non-critical cracks find in some pipes. They have themselves said afterward that the immediate actions were not necessary. The actions were overreactive (from EDF side) and the calendar was very unfortunate. > So even if the mentioned 5 bn export now was pure profit - which is isn't - Indeed. Profits in 2025 were currently over 8bn€, so well over 5bn€. 5bn€ just concern the profit made by the exports. This is not hard to understand: Making a profit by selling valuable nuclear energy during evening peak consumption while buying cheap intermittent solar during low consumption time is an easy game. People generally do not understand that Nuclear is a CAPEX game, not an OPEX one. > And they will have to sell their power on markets that will increasingly often have free electricity from solar and wind. How do you pay 1000 educated plant operators when electricity prices are negative? By selling nuclear electricity at 180€/MWh every night when the sun do not shine. (This is the average price, every evening peak this month) Meaning-while, the profitability of solar operators will sink to the ground due to the overcapacity causing negative price during the day as soon as the sun shine. Many of them will die if not state subsidized with public money. > nuclear power isn't the kind of thing you can try and then walk away from when it turns out to be a bad idea It is currently the best low-carbon energy around. And will continue to be for the next 2 decades. The current Co2/kwh emission of France is 27g/kwh. The comparison with country like Germany (397g/kwh) or state like California (190g/kwh) that spend >100Bn$ on renewable speak for itself. I can safely bet that in 15y from now, the French grid will still be greener than the German one.

natmaka 7mo ago
> making a profit by selling valuable nuclear energy EDF adjusted economic debt at the beginning of 2026: €81.7 billion After decades of massive help (nationalisations building it, monopoly, gift-loans, debt cancellation... > the profitability of solar operators will sink to the ground due to the overcapacity causing negative price Wait for storage (V2G...) and hydrogen to kick in. > France > Germany France's transition to nuclear power began in 1963 and is now complete. In other countries (Germany...), transitions to renewables began with the advent of their industrial versions, around 2005. The current context makes these transitions more challenging, and they are still underway. Therefore, any comparison of their results, for example, greenhouse gas emissions, must be based not on snapshots (which currently favor France since its transition is complete), but on their progress: speed, costs, impacts, etc. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-intensity-electricity?tab=line&time=2011..latest&country=~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-intensity-electric... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-generation-from-solar-and-wind-compared-to-coal?facet=none&country=~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-generation-fr... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/consumption-based-carbon-intensity?tab=line&country=FRA~DEU&globe=1 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/consumption-based-carbon-... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&stackMode=relative&time=2011..latest&country=FRA~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?t...
- adev_ 7mo ago
  > decades of massive help (nationalisations building it, monopoly, gift-loans, debt cancellation... I start seriously question your intellectual honesty here. - For the last 2 decades, EDF was privatised and give back to the state an average of 2bn€ per year in dividende [1]. That is currently EDF giving to the state, not the opposite. - The monopoly situation in France was ended in 2007. The loi NOME in 2010 even offred to the competitor of EDF an access to nuclear energy at fixed low price [2]. Worth to note that when the Energy crisis spiked in 2022, the same 'competitors' sent back their customers to EDF because they massively increased their price and did not want to follow the TRV. > hydrogen to kick in. Nobody sane of mind and reasonable take hydrogen and Power2Gas seriously in the energy sector: The law of physics simply play against it. The general efficient is low (practically around 50%), the electrolizers strongly hate the spike style usage pattern necessary for a coupling with intermittent energy, and no installations of the required scale has even been tried. The only reason this is still on the table is because it gives the gaz industry a reason to drain public subsidies and some hope to stay relevant. > France's transition to nuclear power began in 1963 and is now complete. Thats also wrong. The Messner plan started in 1974 and France was other 55% of electricity production provided by Nuclear in 1985. It finishes with over 50 reactors in 15 years to cover up more than 70% of the electricity generated [3] The cost of the plan Messmer was estimated at 100bn€ in 2012 money. Germany started their energiewende in 2005 and 20 years later and 400Bn€ burned, they still do have a CO2/kwh intensity 4x higher than France in the 80s. The results are so bad that Germany started to subsidies its own industry to protect them against electricity price increase [4] Again, the results speak for themselves. [1]: https://www.senat.fr/rap/r16-335/r16-3354.html https://www.senat.fr/rap/r16-335/r16-3354.html [2]: https://www.cre.fr/electricite/marche-de-gros-de-lelectricite/acces-regule-a-lelectricite-nucleaire-historique-arenh.html https://www.cre.fr/electricite/marche-de-gros-de-lelectricit... [3]: https://www.sirenergies.com/en/article/history-of-nuclear-power-in-france https://www.sirenergies.com/en/article/history-of-nuclear-po... [4]: https://perspectives.se.com/blog-stream/germany-industrial-electricity-subsidy-relief-today-strategy-for-tomorrow https://perspectives.se.com/blog-stream/germany-industrial-e...