3 ms·

It’s not true, unless you have an unusual definition of “syntax”. Lisp basically has the most minimal syntax possible, by design. To use the right words: it’s

by epgui 6mo ago

It’s not true, unless you have an unusual definition of “syntax”. Lisp basically has the most minimal syntax possible, by design. To use the right words: it’s not a syntax issue, it just looks unfamiliar to you.

joshlemer 6mo ago
I think this is kind of misleading. Yes s-expressions have very simple syntax in and of themselves. But s-expressions are not all that's required to get all the control structures in Clojure. You need to memorize all the special forms and all the standard macros that people use on a day to day basis. And they're just as hard (actually IME harder) to memorize as any other syntax. let, cond, record, if, condp, let-if, fn, def, defn, loop, recur, if-some, when-let, for, ->, ->>, as->>, cond-> ... To this day I have to look up whenever I get back into clojure what the "syntax" is of ns, require, import, etc.
- epgui 6mo ago
  Remembering macros is much more like remembering functions than syntax.
jz391 6mo ago
The key issue is that Lisp's minimal uniform syntax has less variation to help with visual pattern matching, which we humans are good at (compared to richer syntax). The meta-programming power of Lisp may be largely due to being homoiconic, although Dylan/Julia etc achieve similar without it. However Lisp's minimal syntax is not a prerequisite for homoiconicity: S-Plus/R has a more conventional syntax while retaining "code is a list" representation.
- epgui 6mo ago
  But S-Plus/R is not homoiconic in any way.
tancop 6mo ago
minimal and simple is not the same thing as easy to use and natural/obvious. what looks easier to read: (if (< a b) (let [x (long-function-name a b)] (another-long-function (+ x c))) (+ a b)) or if a < b { let x = long_function_name(a, b); another_long_function(x + c) } else { a + b } to me the first one is way more noisy and confusing. and you really need a text editor with auto close and rainbow brackets to be productive, of course thats a non issue today with vscode and zed/neovim/helix but still something to think about. now rust might not be the best example for "easy to read syntax" but theres also python, lua, kotlin, even js if you ignore strict/loose equals and weird casts. all of them use more procedural/c like syntax because its the natural way humans think about running an algorithm. theres a reason why pseudocode in every textbook looks like that.
- gorjusborg 6mo ago
  > what looks easier to read > to me > theres a reason why pseudocode in every textbook looks like that The reason is history, inertia, and limited exposure. Preference is self-reinforcing for those reasons. That doesn't make it better, or irreversible.
- iLemming 6mo ago
  Honestly it's so exhausting. Every time Clojure gets mentioned on a broader forum, there's always some ridiculous claim that the Lispy syntax is "un-natural". Other Lisp dialects mostly pass unnoticed, but Clojure being more popular always causes some ruckus and I never get it - do people think that Clojurists stumble on it and be like: "holy mother of Alan Turing, this is so much more 'natural' to me than everything else..." Both choices are in the same sense "natural" as skiing and sledding. None of it is "natural" - reading prose in English, Thai or Katakana - all that is "unnatural". Nobody stumbles on the language and immediately thinks the syntax is just better - the majority of Clojurists come to it after years, often decades of using other PLs and they have to struggle at first. Comparison with sledding is apt here, because both methods let you achieve the same goal - going down to the base of the mountain. Of course, skiing is more difficult to start with, it's more expensive, it requires deliberate effort and dedication. But the practical, learned experience far exceeds initial expectations. Do you realize how ridiculous it looks when inexperienced people try to convince them it's not worth it? Well, you may say, "the point is not to convince 'them', but to show the wider public..." And that's even more imbecilic. Imagine trying to point at people zigzagging 70 miles down from the peak, having enormous fun and telling the observers not to even try that? I'd dare anyone to argue with an experienced skier that sledding is more fun. > theres a reason why pseudocode in every textbook looks like that. Like I said, most - the absolute majority of Clojure programmers come to it after many years of programming in other languages (see the surveys). They are using it as a real instrument to achieve real goals, to solve practical problems. It's not an educational tool, not a "hello world app" incubator, not a "good for the resume" kind of a thing for them. If you (not you personally, but some proverbial programmer) are arguing just for the sake of it, well, with all respect, then "fuck you" (for wasting people's time). If you're sincerely trying to make a choice - nobody can "make a skier" out of you - that is something you must do on your own. No theory, no books, no videos can ever convey to you the enormous joy you may get out of it later - there's too much nontransferable tacit knowledge there. Just keep in mind, people in this community didn't make the choice because "their brains are wired differently" or something, not because "they are oblivious", no. Unlike you - they have seen, walked and lived through both of these worlds. Most of them have to switch between them, sometimes multiple times a day. And yes, the wider majority can often be wrong. In fact, history shows us that it makes wrong choices all the time. Lispers don't care about popular choices - they prioritize pragmatism above all.

by epgui 6mo ago

joshlemer 6mo ago

I think this is kind of misleading. Yes s-expressions have very simple syntax in and of themselves. But s-expressions are not all that's required to get all the control structures in Clojure. You need to memorize all the special forms and all the standard macros that people use on a day to day basis. And they're just as hard (actually IME harder) to memorize as any other syntax. let, cond, record, if, condp, let-if, fn, def, defn, loop, recur, if-some, when-let, for, ->, ->>, as->>, cond-> ... To this day I have to look up whenever I get back into clojure what the "syntax" is of ns, require, import, etc.

epgui 6mo ago
Remembering macros is much more like remembering functions than syntax.

jz391 6mo ago

The key issue is that Lisp's minimal uniform syntax has less variation to help with visual pattern matching, which we humans are good at (compared to richer syntax). The meta-programming power of Lisp may be largely due to being homoiconic, although Dylan/Julia etc achieve similar without it. However Lisp's minimal syntax is not a prerequisite for homoiconicity: S-Plus/R has a more conventional syntax while retaining "code is a list" representation.

epgui 6mo ago
But S-Plus/R is not homoiconic in any way.

tancop 6mo ago

minimal and simple is not the same thing as easy to use and natural/obvious. what looks easier to read: (if (< a b) (let [x (long-function-name a b)] (another-long-function (+ x c))) (+ a b)) or if a < b { let x = long_function_name(a, b); another_long_function(x + c) } else { a + b } to me the first one is way more noisy and confusing. and you really need a text editor with auto close and rainbow brackets to be productive, of course thats a non issue today with vscode and zed/neovim/helix but still something to think about. now rust might not be the best example for "easy to read syntax" but theres also python, lua, kotlin, even js if you ignore strict/loose equals and weird casts. all of them use more procedural/c like syntax because its the natural way humans think about running an algorithm. theres a reason why pseudocode in every textbook looks like that.

gorjusborg 6mo ago
> what looks easier to read > to me > theres a reason why pseudocode in every textbook looks like that The reason is history, inertia, and limited exposure. Preference is self-reinforcing for those reasons. That doesn't make it better, or irreversible.
iLemming 6mo ago
Honestly it's so exhausting. Every time Clojure gets mentioned on a broader forum, there's always some ridiculous claim that the Lispy syntax is "un-natural". Other Lisp dialects mostly pass unnoticed, but Clojure being more popular always causes some ruckus and I never get it - do people think that Clojurists stumble on it and be like: "holy mother of Alan Turing, this is so much more 'natural' to me than everything else..." Both choices are in the same sense "natural" as skiing and sledding. None of it is "natural" - reading prose in English, Thai or Katakana - all that is "unnatural". Nobody stumbles on the language and immediately thinks the syntax is just better - the majority of Clojurists come to it after years, often decades of using other PLs and they have to struggle at first. Comparison with sledding is apt here, because both methods let you achieve the same goal - going down to the base of the mountain. Of course, skiing is more difficult to start with, it's more expensive, it requires deliberate effort and dedication. But the practical, learned experience far exceeds initial expectations. Do you realize how ridiculous it looks when inexperienced people try to convince them it's not worth it? Well, you may say, "the point is not to convince 'them', but to show the wider public..." And that's even more imbecilic. Imagine trying to point at people zigzagging 70 miles down from the peak, having enormous fun and telling the observers not to even try that? I'd dare anyone to argue with an experienced skier that sledding is more fun. > theres a reason why pseudocode in every textbook looks like that. Like I said, most - the absolute majority of Clojure programmers come to it after many years of programming in other languages (see the surveys). They are using it as a real instrument to achieve real goals, to solve practical problems. It's not an educational tool, not a "hello world app" incubator, not a "good for the resume" kind of a thing for them. If you (not you personally, but some proverbial programmer) are arguing just for the sake of it, well, with all respect, then "fuck you" (for wasting people's time). If you're sincerely trying to make a choice - nobody can "make a skier" out of you - that is something you must do on your own. No theory, no books, no videos can ever convey to you the enormous joy you may get out of it later - there's too much nontransferable tacit knowledge there. Just keep in mind, people in this community didn't make the choice because "their brains are wired differently" or something, not because "they are oblivious", no. Unlike you - they have seen, walked and lived through both of these worlds. Most of them have to switch between them, sometimes multiple times a day. And yes, the wider majority can often be wrong. In fact, history shows us that it makes wrong choices all the time. Lispers don't care about popular choices - they prioritize pragmatism above all.