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While I'm not entirely disagreeing with your point, there is an element of dubious optionality wrt student debt when one systemically cannot find gainful employ

While I'm not entirely disagreeing with your point, there is an element of dubious optionality wrt student debt when one systemically cannot find gainful employment without a college degree. College degrees are increasingly becoming the new high school diplomas—wherein they are, for all intents and purposes, of equal compulsory nature, without the defense of laws requiring all 18-21-year-olds to be there. Thus, for vast majorities of the population who wish to lead productive economic lives, the "option" isn't quite optional anymore.

tsotha 14y ago
I disagree. There are all kinds of things you can do that don't require a college degree, including any kind of owner-operated business, a military career, or a skilled trade. Even today only 40% of the population gets a college degree. That other 60% is doing something to make ends meet.
- bobwaycott 14y ago
  I think you miss the point. Systemically, exiting high school and entering college is the narrative. It is the path students are being presented as the way forward, not an option forward. Culturally, there is a very strong set of expectations placed on people wrt university education, and this narrative determines people's recognized option paths. There are strong social determinants in place, both positive and negative, to which people react and from which they draw their conclusions--even unknowingly. Student debt has risen in tandem with the codification of the narrative. An entire industry of loan operations has exploited the inexperienced eighteen-year-olds of the last few decades, saddling them with lifelong debt in the pursuit of the supposed "dream" the American narrative has been selling them their whole lives. Suffice to say, when one talks about options available to people, one should talk deeply of the real viability and potentiality of those options on a person and his/her life, and refrain from rattling off platitudes of the things someone could do other than follow the narrative. Those things typically aren't qualitatively better, and usually wind up being part of the greater narrative as how we ease our consciences and wash our hands of people we allow to systemically fail.
  - greedo 14y ago
    Then we need to change this narrative, because it doesn't fit the real requirements of the job world. Trade schools, apprentice programs etc are common all over the world, but not as well accepted in the US. You know who I envy? The electrician who came out last week to install a whole home surge protector. He makes excellent money, in a relatively safe work environment, and has reasonable hours. There's a whole world of "skilled" trades that offer gainful employment without a four year degree, but as a society focused on bling, we don't give those careers our blessings.
    - bobwaycott 14y ago
      > Then we need to change this narrative, because it doesn't fit the real requirements of the job world. Exactly this.
    - tsotha 14y ago
      >You know who I envy? The electrician who came out last week to install a whole home surge protector. He makes excellent money, in a relatively safe work environment, and has reasonable hours. Not only that, nobody's going to send his job to China.
greedo 14y ago
The problem isn't that people are pursuing degrees, it's that some are pursuing economically unviable degrees. Here's a little anectdata from a friend. His daughter is in debt $60k for a degree in theater. Did well in college, but wants to "make it" in NYC. Now obviously the theater industry is very competitive, especially in NYC. So while trying to do various theatrical activities to get her foot in the door, she's a dog walker. She doesn't make much money, so she's qualifying for assistance. She could move back home, get a job in a different field (her dad has lined up several paying jobs), but she wants to stay in NYC. She's unable to make any payments on her loans, so those are going to build up quickly. This is what drives fiscal conservatives crazy. And when groups are asking for student loan debt forgiveness/bailout, it's doubly frustrating. She's making multiple choices that are fiscally imprudent, and expecting to be subsidized both in assistance and loan forgiveness. TLDR, basketweaving degrees aren't worth going into debt for, but an entitled generation wants to "pursue their dreams" on someone else's dime.
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  Anecdotes do not prove the existence of an entitled generation. I have plenty of contrary anecdotes, and they would mean as much.
- bobwaycott 14y ago
  I really think you need to get your biases in check. Pursuing one's dreams is exactly what the last couple generations have been raised to do. They didn't exit the womb feeling entitled. They were told since near birth they could be whatever they wanted to be. They were told they needed to go to college. They did exactly as they were told and wound up with little to show for it and an overwhelmingly difficult job market. They have been following the cultural narrative. Now, they're thinking, "What the fuck?" and society is acting like it didn't push them headlong into this. By the time they've realized the narrative failed them, it's too late.
  - greedo 14y ago
    I agree 100% with your reply, but I guess I've got a blind spot about my biases. In the case of my friend's daughter, she's aware of her options, realizes that she's not making any progress towards her dreams, but refuses to acknowledge the failed narrative. If she was thinking "WTF?" she'd be moving on and not dogwalking...

tsotha 14y ago

I disagree. There are all kinds of things you can do that don't require a college degree, including any kind of owner-operated business, a military career, or a skilled trade. Even today only 40% of the population gets a college degree. That other 60% is doing something to make ends meet.

bobwaycott 14y ago
I think you miss the point. Systemically, exiting high school and entering college is the narrative. It is the path students are being presented as the way forward, not an option forward. Culturally, there is a very strong set of expectations placed on people wrt university education, and this narrative determines people's recognized option paths. There are strong social determinants in place, both positive and negative, to which people react and from which they draw their conclusions--even unknowingly. Student debt has risen in tandem with the codification of the narrative. An entire industry of loan operations has exploited the inexperienced eighteen-year-olds of the last few decades, saddling them with lifelong debt in the pursuit of the supposed "dream" the American narrative has been selling them their whole lives. Suffice to say, when one talks about options available to people, one should talk deeply of the real viability and potentiality of those options on a person and his/her life, and refrain from rattling off platitudes of the things someone could do other than follow the narrative. Those things typically aren't qualitatively better, and usually wind up being part of the greater narrative as how we ease our consciences and wash our hands of people we allow to systemically fail.
- greedo 14y ago
  Then we need to change this narrative, because it doesn't fit the real requirements of the job world. Trade schools, apprentice programs etc are common all over the world, but not as well accepted in the US. You know who I envy? The electrician who came out last week to install a whole home surge protector. He makes excellent money, in a relatively safe work environment, and has reasonable hours. There's a whole world of "skilled" trades that offer gainful employment without a four year degree, but as a society focused on bling, we don't give those careers our blessings.
  - bobwaycott 14y ago
    > Then we need to change this narrative, because it doesn't fit the real requirements of the job world. Exactly this.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    >You know who I envy? The electrician who came out last week to install a whole home surge protector. He makes excellent money, in a relatively safe work environment, and has reasonable hours. Not only that, nobody's going to send his job to China.

greedo 14y ago

The problem isn't that people are pursuing degrees, it's that some are pursuing economically unviable degrees. Here's a little anectdata from a friend. His daughter is in debt $60k for a degree in theater. Did well in college, but wants to "make it" in NYC. Now obviously the theater industry is very competitive, especially in NYC. So while trying to do various theatrical activities to get her foot in the door, she's a dog walker. She doesn't make much money, so she's qualifying for assistance. She could move back home, get a job in a different field (her dad has lined up several paying jobs), but she wants to stay in NYC. She's unable to make any payments on her loans, so those are going to build up quickly. This is what drives fiscal conservatives crazy. And when groups are asking for student loan debt forgiveness/bailout, it's doubly frustrating. She's making multiple choices that are fiscally imprudent, and expecting to be subsidized both in assistance and loan forgiveness. TLDR, basketweaving degrees aren't worth going into debt for, but an entitled generation wants to "pursue their dreams" on someone else's dime.

mkr-hn 14y ago
Anecdotes do not prove the existence of an entitled generation. I have plenty of contrary anecdotes, and they would mean as much.
bobwaycott 14y ago
I really think you need to get your biases in check. Pursuing one's dreams is exactly what the last couple generations have been raised to do. They didn't exit the womb feeling entitled. They were told since near birth they could be whatever they wanted to be. They were told they needed to go to college. They did exactly as they were told and wound up with little to show for it and an overwhelmingly difficult job market. They have been following the cultural narrative. Now, they're thinking, "What the fuck?" and society is acting like it didn't push them headlong into this. By the time they've realized the narrative failed them, it's too late.
- greedo 14y ago
  I agree 100% with your reply, but I guess I've got a blind spot about my biases. In the case of my friend's daughter, she's aware of her options, realizes that she's not making any progress towards her dreams, but refuses to acknowledge the failed narrative. If she was thinking "WTF?" she'd be moving on and not dogwalking...