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But if theyre making payments on the debt, the debt collector won't sell it because theyre actually getting their money. The only debts OWS is going to be able

But if theyre making payments on the debt, the debt collector won't sell it because theyre actually getting their money. The only debts OWS is going to be able to buy are the ones not making payments and the ones that havent made payments in a very long time. So, as cool as not having to pay 50/100 a month sounds, that wont happen to anybody because the ones paying are not the kind of people that would be getting relieved of their debt. Also, the people who havent paid their debt in years hardly benefit from this too (this might even make it worse in a way) because not only have they had an unpaid debt sitting there, they now have a new mark on their credit saying somebody gave up on collecting on them and that they sold their debt to somebody else. This is even worse, from my understanding of credit, for your credit score then it is to just let the debt sit there. The person in debt obviously isnt making any payments if it's up for sale, so it's not like it saves them any money. All this does is modify their credit score. This all sounded awesome skin deep, but as you look into it more... it doesnt really do much for anybody affected by Sandy or anybody in financial crisis in general. They're saving just a few people a few hundred bucks that wouldn't be coming out of their bank account for years to come... if at all, ever. They would be more productive just giving money to people affected by sandy then paying off debt that people have ignored for years anyway. People need food, shelter, clothes, toiletries, warmth... not a 'hey we paid off a debt you havent cared about for years and you dont get to see any of the money we just spent on you, but sorry your cold and good luck'.

stickfigure 14y ago
This seems like the key insight about this issue. The debts OWS buys on the cheap are debts that were never going to be paid off in the first place. The net practical effect of this action is to transfer money from well-meaning people into the hands of debt collection agencies. Seems like the only people being bailed out are debt speculators. Doesn't sound like a worthy cause to me.
- elemenohpee 14y ago
  You're still only thinking in terms of the market. This action is about raising social capital.
  - greedo 14y ago
    How does this raise social capital? It's not helping the original debtor, and in fact, is increasing the demand for non-performing debt? Collection agencies will LOVE this program, since they can now actually make some money off of non-performing debt. If anything, this will result in collection agencies increasing their harassment of delinquent accounts.
    - elemenohpee 14y ago
      Because it's a signal to all these debtors that there's a significant segment of the population that doesn't want to play by the old rules. It shows that they can count on their fellow citizens to help them out when they are down on their luck, the very definition of social capital.
      - greedo 14y ago
        Okay, say I'm in debt to BigHospital for my cancer treatments. I only owe $10K (ha!) and discharging this debt in bankruptcy is something I either couldn't afford or otherwise was unable to accomplish. I've managed to avoid paying the debt collectors for whatever reason, and I have this low value debt out there. It's par value might be $10k, but it's sold to Rolling Jubilee for $500. Rolling Jubilee discharges this debt. In practical terms, my credit is already shot. I wasn't able to pay off this debt anyways, so it's not as if I have more money in my pocket. Sure I might be able to rebuild my credit a bit faster depending on how Rolling Jubilee reports the handling of this debt etc etc. Maybe not. Even if it persists on my credit score, rebuilding credit isn't as hard once you get a decent steady job. If I don't have that, I have no business getting more credit, no? The old rules that you say no one wants to play by are still there at the end of the day. Oh, and "hey can count on their fellow citizens to help them out when they are down on their luck" doesn't seem to be the very definition of social capital from your link.
      - justindocanto 14y ago
        Alright... lets actually entertain this idealism for a second. Let's give it a good honest shot and see how well this could work out, even in the most favorable conditions. Lets say 700 people go this event because the capacity of the venue is a maximum of 700. Let's also say they all donated $50 bucks. Let's be real, most people will only pay $25 each because they're they're psuedo-anarchostic punks who just want to see the bands they love for as cheap as they can. But hey, maybe a few people felt the need to go big on this one. So, let's say 700 people donated an average of $50 each. That's $35,000 raised from the event and if no artists get paid, if the venue doesn't take a chunk, if the promoter doesn't take a chunk, if the flyers were printed for free, if security doesn't get paid, etc. then that's $35,000 that can be used to buy $700,000 in purchased debt. It's worth noting that in the real world, even Non-Profits have to pay to use a venue, security, promoters, etc. Something with a capacity of 700 in NYC is probably a few thousand at least, based on prices over here on the west coast in LA and San Diego. But hey... let's just be generous since thats the spirit of the whole thing anyway. Let's say they get all $35,000 without a single expense. Not even a penny. Now lets look at some normal unpaid debt that this will probably go to. The average public college student pays $30,000 over 4 years, so lets say a few kids racked up $30,000 in debt each. Usually college kids also take out loans for textbooks, sneak in a little for groceries & supplies, but again... Let's do the super generous thing and say it's only $30,000 and not a penny more. Keep in mind we're not even counting interest! That's super generous! $700,000 in purchased debt, at $30,000 for 4 years of school = 23 kids get a free ride. That's really cool. Really awesome. YAY! But wait... they graduated 5 years ago and they dont get to see this money. Since it's being paid for by buying the debt, this means they werent making payments anyway... SO it didnt even benifit them at all. The only thing it did was modify their credit score and give the lending industry $35,000 they didnt have before. I thought this was supposed to be about putting the man on his ear and teaching him a lesson? Hmmmmm. Reality is calling. Not only did we not help 23 kids but we also forgot about interest, late fees, attorney fees and all the other other debt this $700,000 would have accumulated over the 5 years of not being paid. You're probably looking at more like... $1.4 million when all is said and done. If you've ever been in collections that long, you know the amount can EASILY double. So really, even with a free venue, and no textbooks or supplies... You really only saved about 12 or 13 kids from paying a debt they weren't paying already in the first place. 12 kids, 23 kids... either way it's $700,000 in debt that the lenders still collected $35,000 on. Do you know how much debt there is owed to lenders and collection agencies?? Do you seriously think even something as attractive sounding as $700,00 will teach the lending industry anything? Keep in mind... You didn't give them $700,000. You gave them $35,000. Let's look at real numbers here. In just credit card debt alone, and this is based off 'average' numbers, there's at least $1.4 trillion dollars owed just in credit card debt right now that is unpaid. And that is just in credit card debt alone. It's well known that there's $1 Trillion dollars unpaid in student loans right now. Lets say you paid a ton of credit card bills because that would help more people since the amount is less, per case. You know how much the credit card companies still are looking to collect? $1,369,199,300,000. Yup, that number is still in the trillions. Man this is really hard to put in a positive light. Hmmm, ok I give up. Now, back in 'real life' land, we forgot all about business loans, house loans, construction loans, medical bills, school loans, the interest, the late fees, the attorney fees... and so on. I'm sure that number is in the tens of trillions of dollars at least. And you think you're going to put an industry on its ear by putting on a concert that will max out at 700 and by giving them $35,000? Even if you did a national tour for every day of the year with no expenses, you wouldn't even break the billion mark in PURCHASED debt. You would have only given them $12.7 million in actual cash... after 365 events... with no expenses whatsoever.... that people paid $50 to get into. You're talking about playing with $35,000 in monopoly money like it's going to make a difference. You are so sadly mistaken. This is the same misdirected anger I see all over OWS. There's good ideas, that sound great at first, but when you do the Math.. it doesnt add up. All I can say is please stop wasting your time and go back to the drawing board. $35,000 of imaginary money could do so much better. $35,000 could go to helping real people right now, today, that need it. $35,000 doesnt need to be spent paying 20 kids school loans that they were never going to pay anyway. People in our country need real life food, real life shelter, real life water and real life clothes while thinking of donating all that money to the same industry youre tring to make play by new rules. It's so irresponsible and wrong that it's almost offensive.
- lmm 14y ago
  It's the equivalent of buying out a debt collection agency and shutting it down (just on a smaller scale). Moral hazard aside that seems like a decent enough cause.
elemenohpee 14y ago
> People need food, shelter, clothes, toiletries, warmth That's exactly what Occupy Sandy provided, in some cases better than the Red Cross or FEMA could: http://interoccupy.net/occupysandy/ http://interoccupy.net/occupysandy/ This is an action by Strike Debt. OWS didn't go away, it's evolved into these different platforms.
- justindocanto 14y ago
  Then they should focus on that and not waste their time pretending like their helping people by buying their debt they havent paid in years.

stickfigure 14y ago

This seems like the key insight about this issue. The debts OWS buys on the cheap are debts that were never going to be paid off in the first place. The net practical effect of this action is to transfer money from well-meaning people into the hands of debt collection agencies. Seems like the only people being bailed out are debt speculators. Doesn't sound like a worthy cause to me.

elemenohpee 14y ago
You're still only thinking in terms of the market. This action is about raising social capital.
- greedo 14y ago
  How does this raise social capital? It's not helping the original debtor, and in fact, is increasing the demand for non-performing debt? Collection agencies will LOVE this program, since they can now actually make some money off of non-performing debt. If anything, this will result in collection agencies increasing their harassment of delinquent accounts.
  - elemenohpee 14y ago
    Because it's a signal to all these debtors that there's a significant segment of the population that doesn't want to play by the old rules. It shows that they can count on their fellow citizens to help them out when they are down on their luck, the very definition of social capital.
    - greedo 14y ago
      Okay, say I'm in debt to BigHospital for my cancer treatments. I only owe $10K (ha!) and discharging this debt in bankruptcy is something I either couldn't afford or otherwise was unable to accomplish. I've managed to avoid paying the debt collectors for whatever reason, and I have this low value debt out there. It's par value might be $10k, but it's sold to Rolling Jubilee for $500. Rolling Jubilee discharges this debt. In practical terms, my credit is already shot. I wasn't able to pay off this debt anyways, so it's not as if I have more money in my pocket. Sure I might be able to rebuild my credit a bit faster depending on how Rolling Jubilee reports the handling of this debt etc etc. Maybe not. Even if it persists on my credit score, rebuilding credit isn't as hard once you get a decent steady job. If I don't have that, I have no business getting more credit, no? The old rules that you say no one wants to play by are still there at the end of the day. Oh, and "hey can count on their fellow citizens to help them out when they are down on their luck" doesn't seem to be the very definition of social capital from your link.
    - justindocanto 14y ago
      Alright... lets actually entertain this idealism for a second. Let's give it a good honest shot and see how well this could work out, even in the most favorable conditions. Lets say 700 people go this event because the capacity of the venue is a maximum of 700. Let's also say they all donated $50 bucks. Let's be real, most people will only pay $25 each because they're they're psuedo-anarchostic punks who just want to see the bands they love for as cheap as they can. But hey, maybe a few people felt the need to go big on this one. So, let's say 700 people donated an average of $50 each. That's $35,000 raised from the event and if no artists get paid, if the venue doesn't take a chunk, if the promoter doesn't take a chunk, if the flyers were printed for free, if security doesn't get paid, etc. then that's $35,000 that can be used to buy $700,000 in purchased debt. It's worth noting that in the real world, even Non-Profits have to pay to use a venue, security, promoters, etc. Something with a capacity of 700 in NYC is probably a few thousand at least, based on prices over here on the west coast in LA and San Diego. But hey... let's just be generous since thats the spirit of the whole thing anyway. Let's say they get all $35,000 without a single expense. Not even a penny. Now lets look at some normal unpaid debt that this will probably go to. The average public college student pays $30,000 over 4 years, so lets say a few kids racked up $30,000 in debt each. Usually college kids also take out loans for textbooks, sneak in a little for groceries & supplies, but again... Let's do the super generous thing and say it's only $30,000 and not a penny more. Keep in mind we're not even counting interest! That's super generous! $700,000 in purchased debt, at $30,000 for 4 years of school = 23 kids get a free ride. That's really cool. Really awesome. YAY! But wait... they graduated 5 years ago and they dont get to see this money. Since it's being paid for by buying the debt, this means they werent making payments anyway... SO it didnt even benifit them at all. The only thing it did was modify their credit score and give the lending industry $35,000 they didnt have before. I thought this was supposed to be about putting the man on his ear and teaching him a lesson? Hmmmmm. Reality is calling. Not only did we not help 23 kids but we also forgot about interest, late fees, attorney fees and all the other other debt this $700,000 would have accumulated over the 5 years of not being paid. You're probably looking at more like... $1.4 million when all is said and done. If you've ever been in collections that long, you know the amount can EASILY double. So really, even with a free venue, and no textbooks or supplies... You really only saved about 12 or 13 kids from paying a debt they weren't paying already in the first place. 12 kids, 23 kids... either way it's $700,000 in debt that the lenders still collected $35,000 on. Do you know how much debt there is owed to lenders and collection agencies?? Do you seriously think even something as attractive sounding as $700,00 will teach the lending industry anything? Keep in mind... You didn't give them $700,000. You gave them $35,000. Let's look at real numbers here. In just credit card debt alone, and this is based off 'average' numbers, there's at least $1.4 trillion dollars owed just in credit card debt right now that is unpaid. And that is just in credit card debt alone. It's well known that there's $1 Trillion dollars unpaid in student loans right now. Lets say you paid a ton of credit card bills because that would help more people since the amount is less, per case. You know how much the credit card companies still are looking to collect? $1,369,199,300,000. Yup, that number is still in the trillions. Man this is really hard to put in a positive light. Hmmm, ok I give up. Now, back in 'real life' land, we forgot all about business loans, house loans, construction loans, medical bills, school loans, the interest, the late fees, the attorney fees... and so on. I'm sure that number is in the tens of trillions of dollars at least. And you think you're going to put an industry on its ear by putting on a concert that will max out at 700 and by giving them $35,000? Even if you did a national tour for every day of the year with no expenses, you wouldn't even break the billion mark in PURCHASED debt. You would have only given them $12.7 million in actual cash... after 365 events... with no expenses whatsoever.... that people paid $50 to get into. You're talking about playing with $35,000 in monopoly money like it's going to make a difference. You are so sadly mistaken. This is the same misdirected anger I see all over OWS. There's good ideas, that sound great at first, but when you do the Math.. it doesnt add up. All I can say is please stop wasting your time and go back to the drawing board. $35,000 of imaginary money could do so much better. $35,000 could go to helping real people right now, today, that need it. $35,000 doesnt need to be spent paying 20 kids school loans that they were never going to pay anyway. People in our country need real life food, real life shelter, real life water and real life clothes while thinking of donating all that money to the same industry youre tring to make play by new rules. It's so irresponsible and wrong that it's almost offensive.
lmm 14y ago
It's the equivalent of buying out a debt collection agency and shutting it down (just on a smaller scale). Moral hazard aside that seems like a decent enough cause.

elemenohpee 14y ago

> People need food, shelter, clothes, toiletries, warmth That's exactly what Occupy Sandy provided, in some cases better than the Red Cross or FEMA could: http://interoccupy.net/occupysandy/ http://interoccupy.net/occupysandy/ This is an action by Strike Debt. OWS didn't go away, it's evolved into these different platforms.

justindocanto 14y ago
Then they should focus on that and not waste their time pretending like their helping people by buying their debt they havent paid in years.