4 ms·

I'm not sure how that example differs from an ultimatum.

by strken 6mo ago

danielheath 6mo ago
To me, the difference is positive vs negative acts. An ultimatum says “you must do X or else I will do Y” A boundary says “you must refrain from X or else I will do Y”.
- cwmoore 6mo ago
  “You must do as I say, or else.” You make a distinction without a difference. In either case, without providing for compromise or alternative mutual understanding, it is likely confounding and demanding.
  - danielheath 6mo ago
    The negative/positive distinction is (you must _perform_ this act by <date>) vs (you must _refrain from_ this act <indefinitely>). Additionally, an ultimatum comes with a deadline; a boundary is indefinite (until stated otherwise). In a sexual relationship context, that distinction could be better illustrated by: "Don't touch me like that again without asking first, or I will break up with you" vs "If you don't have sex with me by the end of the week, I'll break up with you". An ultimatum is, to most people, inherently damaging to psychological safety. A boundary is not automatically better - it can be unreasonable, unhealthy, or incompatible with the other persons needs - but unlike an ultimatum, it's not _inherently_ harmful to the relationship.
danaris 6mo ago
I guess my question is: What's wrong with an ultimatum over things that are actually egregious enough to need a hard boundary? It seems like you're stuck on the word "ultimatum", as if there's nothing that could possibly be acceptable to give an ultimatum over. I mean...I'm a pretty easygoing guy overall. My boundaries are things like, "If you come up and scream in my face, I'll tell you to sod off." "If you punch me, I'll probably shove you back." Reasonable boundaries for other people might be "if you grab my butt, I will report you to HR", or "if you ask me to work unpaid overtime, I will refuse (and report you to HR/the NLRB)". It seems like you think "people setting boundaries" looks like telling your coworkers things like "never ever speak to me in anything but the most respectful tones" or "if you ask me about my personal life, even the tiniest bit, I will call the police". Except in extremely unusual circumstances, "boundaries" like that are actually people being abusive of their coworkers.

I'm not sure how that example differs from an ultimatum.

by strken 6mo ago

I'm not sure how that example differs from an ultimatum.

To me, the difference is positive vs negative acts. An ultimatum says “you must do X or else I will do Y” A boundary says “you must refrain from X or else I will do Y”.

cwmoore 6mo ago
“You must do as I say, or else.” You make a distinction without a difference. In either case, without providing for compromise or alternative mutual understanding, it is likely confounding and demanding.
- danielheath 6mo ago
  The negative/positive distinction is (you must _perform_ this act by <date>) vs (you must _refrain from_ this act <indefinitely>). Additionally, an ultimatum comes with a deadline; a boundary is indefinite (until stated otherwise). In a sexual relationship context, that distinction could be better illustrated by: "Don't touch me like that again without asking first, or I will break up with you" vs "If you don't have sex with me by the end of the week, I'll break up with you". An ultimatum is, to most people, inherently damaging to psychological safety. A boundary is not automatically better - it can be unreasonable, unhealthy, or incompatible with the other persons needs - but unlike an ultimatum, it's not _inherently_ harmful to the relationship.

danaris 6mo ago

I guess my question is: What's wrong with an ultimatum over things that are actually egregious enough to need a hard boundary? It seems like you're stuck on the word "ultimatum", as if there's nothing that could possibly be acceptable to give an ultimatum over. I mean...I'm a pretty easygoing guy overall. My boundaries are things like, "If you come up and scream in my face, I'll tell you to sod off." "If you punch me, I'll probably shove you back." Reasonable boundaries for other people might be "if you grab my butt, I will report you to HR", or "if you ask me to work unpaid overtime, I will refuse (and report you to HR/the NLRB)". It seems like you think "people setting boundaries" looks like telling your coworkers things like "never ever speak to me in anything but the most respectful tones" or "if you ask me about my personal life, even the tiniest bit, I will call the police". Except in extremely unusual circumstances, "boundaries" like that are actually people being abusive of their coworkers.