5 ms·

I think the test for BGP is Safe is when we stop using it and instead use SCION: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCION_(Internet_architecture) https://en.wikipedi

I think the test for BGP is Safe is when we stop using it and instead use SCION: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCION_(Internet_architecture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCION_(Internet_architecture).

wussboy 6mo ago
Why hasn't this happened?
- benjojo12 6mo ago
  Because SCION is mostly said as a joke in the more serious carrier world. SCION is practically speaking proprietary, and has 1 and maybe a half implementations. I have a laundry list of real problems with SCION but SCION feels like one of those entities that would get quite legal-ey if discussed publicly.
  - genuineDSD 6mo ago
    [flagged]
- dsr_ 6mo ago
  Because BGP works, is understood, and has been debugged by thousands of people and billions of sessions between dozens or hundreds of implementations. So the benefit of changing out all that infrastucture needs to be much higher than the cost.
  - genuineDSD 6mo ago
    You are right. And it'd be absolutely irresponsible to expect _everybody_ to drop things on the floor and adopt a new protocol (implementation) over night. However, it'd be equally irresponsible to ask for an innovation budget of 0 percent. The reason one bothers with new approaches is, of course, that fixing things on a conceptual level prevents many of the debugging sessions that you had to go through with the old approach. Why QUIC if there is TCP/TLS/HTTP? IPv4 and NAT are literally _everywhere_. It's tested and well-understood (one would think). But—and that's just my opinion—I sure hope that, one day, we will not have to deal with that mess no more ...
pigggg 6mo ago
SCION is generally considered snake oil within the network operator community. Its weird single vendor for profit company that ships it's software, the fact that no router hw asic fwding supports what they want to do and then the general scummy inclusion of block chain / crypto as well as some "green washing" for PR hype. Sure the swiss have their toy but no one is taking it seriously.
- xyquadrat 6mo ago
  Hmm, I'd disagree. The fact that Anapaya Systems (the for profit company mentioned) has the only commercial implementation/adjacent software is a problem, yes. But "snake oil" doesn't quite match up with the fact that SCION right now provides the backbone for the Swiss financial network moving 200 billion CHF each day [1], so at least some level of workable technology has to be there. And for no one to be taking it seriously, there's a decently long list of multinational ISPs at the very least taking steps towards offering SCION to customers [2] (e.g. British Telecom has expressed enough interest that they have various recent marketing videos on Anapaya's YouTube channel). Finally, I'm not sure what you mean regarding the "scummy inclusion of block chain / crypto" - as someone who has worked on SCION-based projects I never heard anything about this. Apparently a blockchain company invested in Anapaya, but that doesn't really change anything about the protocol itself, does it? [1] https://www.scion.org/ssfn-scion/ https://www.scion.org/ssfn-scion/ [2] https://www.scion.org/isps/ https://www.scion.org/isps/
  - tonetegeatinst 6mo ago
    200billion CHF....how big is that in bandwidth?
    - bo0tzz 6mo ago
      2.6 million transactions per day [0], which in ISO 20022 XML format messages works out to (rough guess) 20GB per day for an average of 1.8Mbps... [0]: https://www.scion.org/ssfn-scion/ https://www.scion.org/ssfn-scion/
pocksuppet 6mo ago
When we abandon prefix routing based on I-told-you-so and start using Yggdrasil (https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/ https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/) we're safe.

wussboy 6mo ago

Why hasn't this happened?

benjojo12 6mo ago
Because SCION is mostly said as a joke in the more serious carrier world. SCION is practically speaking proprietary, and has 1 and maybe a half implementations. I have a laundry list of real problems with SCION but SCION feels like one of those entities that would get quite legal-ey if discussed publicly.
- genuineDSD 6mo ago
  [flagged]
dsr_ 6mo ago
Because BGP works, is understood, and has been debugged by thousands of people and billions of sessions between dozens or hundreds of implementations. So the benefit of changing out all that infrastucture needs to be much higher than the cost.
- genuineDSD 6mo ago
  You are right. And it'd be absolutely irresponsible to expect _everybody_ to drop things on the floor and adopt a new protocol (implementation) over night. However, it'd be equally irresponsible to ask for an innovation budget of 0 percent. The reason one bothers with new approaches is, of course, that fixing things on a conceptual level prevents many of the debugging sessions that you had to go through with the old approach. Why QUIC if there is TCP/TLS/HTTP? IPv4 and NAT are literally _everywhere_. It's tested and well-understood (one would think). But—and that's just my opinion—I sure hope that, one day, we will not have to deal with that mess no more ...

pigggg 6mo ago

SCION is generally considered snake oil within the network operator community. Its weird single vendor for profit company that ships it's software, the fact that no router hw asic fwding supports what they want to do and then the general scummy inclusion of block chain / crypto as well as some "green washing" for PR hype. Sure the swiss have their toy but no one is taking it seriously.

xyquadrat 6mo ago
Hmm, I'd disagree. The fact that Anapaya Systems (the for profit company mentioned) has the only commercial implementation/adjacent software is a problem, yes. But "snake oil" doesn't quite match up with the fact that SCION right now provides the backbone for the Swiss financial network moving 200 billion CHF each day [1], so at least some level of workable technology has to be there. And for no one to be taking it seriously, there's a decently long list of multinational ISPs at the very least taking steps towards offering SCION to customers [2] (e.g. British Telecom has expressed enough interest that they have various recent marketing videos on Anapaya's YouTube channel). Finally, I'm not sure what you mean regarding the "scummy inclusion of block chain / crypto" - as someone who has worked on SCION-based projects I never heard anything about this. Apparently a blockchain company invested in Anapaya, but that doesn't really change anything about the protocol itself, does it? [1] https://www.scion.org/ssfn-scion/ https://www.scion.org/ssfn-scion/ [2] https://www.scion.org/isps/ https://www.scion.org/isps/
- tonetegeatinst 6mo ago
  200billion CHF....how big is that in bandwidth?
  - bo0tzz 6mo ago
    2.6 million transactions per day [0], which in ISO 20022 XML format messages works out to (rough guess) 20GB per day for an average of 1.8Mbps... [0]: https://www.scion.org/ssfn-scion/ https://www.scion.org/ssfn-scion/

pocksuppet 6mo ago

When we abandon prefix routing based on I-told-you-so and start using Yggdrasil (https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/ https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/) we're safe.