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I think the idea is that when kids are growing up, they make subconscious connections and observations about the world around them. If a young child plays video

by Permit 14y ago

I think the idea is that when kids are growing up, they make subconscious connections and observations about the world around them. If a young child plays video games and consistently sees that boys are always the hero, they might extrapolate that to simply: "Boys and always the hero". I don't have a strong opinion on the subject, I just thought I'd try and explain the position as I understand it.

1qaz2wsx3edc 14y ago
Then again, having the kid realize their parents have been subverting reality could lead to trust and control issues between them. I'll admit it's nice, but at the same time it's delusionment.
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  I don't think Hyrule is a "reality" that can be subverted.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    Try the mushroom.
- jacalata 14y ago
  That doesn't stop most parents from doing Santa Claus and the tooth fairy though.
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    I have a friend whose children were literally furious with her when they worked out that she'd been lying about Santa (which they immediately extrapolated to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and so on). Having young children myself I've thought a bunch about it. I'm not wild about the lying but when you see the enjoyment they get out of it, look back at how you felt about it when you were young (where deception doesn't rank highly amongst my recollections) and think about some of the other consequences (them being the only child in the playground who doesn't believe) generally you come down on the side of the lie. My compromise (if you can call it that) is that I won't be one of those parents who strings it out when they seriously start questioning it. Aside form anything else at that point it seems like a great opportunity to ask them to exercise their reasoning skills to talk through why they're questioning it.
    - rmc 14y ago
      they worked out that she'd been lying about Santa (which they immediately extrapolated to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and so on). I wonder did they extrapolate to Jesus?
      - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
        Jesus wasn't mentioned but as he'd never handed over toys, money or chocolate it may be that they kids were just less fussed about him.
Nathandim 14y ago
I'm sorry but I'm firm to believe that the problem lies to the mind that makes the distinction first. If someone sees Link and the first thing that pops in his head is "what a shame he's not a girl" and retcon the intended storytelling to keep the content on par with their expectations then I certainly can't blame the game's creator. Not to mention that the boy isn't always the hero. I'll just bring another Nintendo saga as an example, Metroid which the main character is Samus Aran. I know that the problem is that there aren't enough games that a young girl can play who offer character customization and that's not just alarming but also shows that there's potentially a market for that kind of games. What bothers me is that parents do not understand that they can't keep their children grow up in a bubble. This is clearly over-protectiveness over something that might or might not be interpreted erroneously over time by his daughter. What is he planning to do? "Patch" every possible subconscious connections that his daughter might make for the next 5-10 years?
- ben0x539 14y ago
  > What is he planning to do? "Patch" every possible subconscious connections that his daughter might make for the next 5-10 years? Maybe the plan is to make a bunch of noise about it so eventually game creators get used to the idea of catering to both halves of their audience. I hope it works.
  - mitchty 14y ago
    In some ways I hope it doesn't. Take the recent Deus Ex game, they steadfastly refused to offer a female view of the game. Their reasoning was this was Adam Jensens story, and he is male, certain in game interactions would only make sense in that context. That said, why we don't have more female videogame leads is beyond me. I'd like to see something like Deus Ex's opinionated take on games than say more of Mass Effect N's dual gender choice. The latter had some rather weird situations if you switched genders. Certain interactions became downright weird or even creepy.
  - city41 14y ago
    But by no means is it "both halves." Game players are overwhelmingly male. And this has nothing to do with exposure or expectations, it's entirely possible that the female brain just isn't as interested in video games. My fiancée enjoys Mario on occasion (and does complain that the princess always needs rescuing), but she flat out does not get into games nearly as much as I do. She could if she wanted to, absolutely nothing holds her back. She is also not unusual in this regard, women as a whole are less interested in video games. So I disagree that game developers should feel obligated to cater to both sexes. Indeed, game developers should simply be allowed to make whatever games they please.
stcredzero 14y ago
> I think the idea is that when kids are growing up, they make subconscious connections and observations about the world around them. Let me say that, in my experience, this is absolutely true. I grew up in Western PA, in a place where we had to drive 50 miles to visit other asians, who weren't even also Korean. I certainly made subconscious connections and observations about the world, many of which were hugely skewed by my environment. For example, it took me until I was in my 20's to figure out that my parents were as sarcastic as any other people. Absent any Korean community in which to observe interactions in that cultural context, I absorbed this notion that Koreans just didn't do sarcasm, which is absolutely incorrect.
- rayiner 14y ago
  This is very interesting! I'm a Bengali raised in a mostly white surroundings, though not as much as say Western PA. I too perecive my parents as not using sarcasm, and it being cultural. Though occasionally my mom will crack a joke, which I find quite startling. I don't really speak the language very well, so I can't really follow very when they talk naturally with other Bengalis. I wonder how much is in there that I'm missing.
- recoil 14y ago
  In my case I assumed until I started primary school that all boys had blue eyes and all girls had brown eyes, because this observation just happened to hold for everyone in my immediate family as well as all of the neighbours' children that I played with.
tedunangst 14y ago
Obvious solution is obvious. Children need to be forced to play more Metroid.
- saraid216 14y ago
  And only Metroid? Or can you produce a list?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Portal.
  - MartinCron 14y ago
    Here's your list, starting with Ms. Pac-Man http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/92-2287/ http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/92-2287/
  - petitmiam 14y ago
    Jill Of The Jungle
  - subsystem 14y ago
    Mirror's Edge
  - hdctambien 14y ago
    Beyond Good and Evil American McGee's Alice Resident Evil Perfect Dark Old NES Games based on the Alien movies (Ripley) Donkey Kong Country 3 (Diddy Kong is the main character) Chrono Trigger's main hero is a male, but 3 of the other 6 playables are strong females (2 of the others are a Frog and a Robot) There are definitely more games with male protagonists than female, but there are enough to list.
    - saraid216 14y ago
      > Donkey Kong Country 3 (Diddy Kong is the main character) You meant Dixie.

by Permit 14y ago

1qaz2wsx3edc 14y ago

Then again, having the kid realize their parents have been subverting reality could lead to trust and control issues between them. I'll admit it's nice, but at the same time it's delusionment.

trhtrsh 14y ago
I don't think Hyrule is a "reality" that can be subverted.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  Try the mushroom.
jacalata 14y ago
That doesn't stop most parents from doing Santa Claus and the tooth fairy though.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  I have a friend whose children were literally furious with her when they worked out that she'd been lying about Santa (which they immediately extrapolated to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and so on). Having young children myself I've thought a bunch about it. I'm not wild about the lying but when you see the enjoyment they get out of it, look back at how you felt about it when you were young (where deception doesn't rank highly amongst my recollections) and think about some of the other consequences (them being the only child in the playground who doesn't believe) generally you come down on the side of the lie. My compromise (if you can call it that) is that I won't be one of those parents who strings it out when they seriously start questioning it. Aside form anything else at that point it seems like a great opportunity to ask them to exercise their reasoning skills to talk through why they're questioning it.
  - rmc 14y ago
    they worked out that she'd been lying about Santa (which they immediately extrapolated to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and so on). I wonder did they extrapolate to Jesus?
    - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
      Jesus wasn't mentioned but as he'd never handed over toys, money or chocolate it may be that they kids were just less fussed about him.

Nathandim 14y ago

I'm sorry but I'm firm to believe that the problem lies to the mind that makes the distinction first. If someone sees Link and the first thing that pops in his head is "what a shame he's not a girl" and retcon the intended storytelling to keep the content on par with their expectations then I certainly can't blame the game's creator. Not to mention that the boy isn't always the hero. I'll just bring another Nintendo saga as an example, Metroid which the main character is Samus Aran. I know that the problem is that there aren't enough games that a young girl can play who offer character customization and that's not just alarming but also shows that there's potentially a market for that kind of games. What bothers me is that parents do not understand that they can't keep their children grow up in a bubble. This is clearly over-protectiveness over something that might or might not be interpreted erroneously over time by his daughter. What is he planning to do? "Patch" every possible subconscious connections that his daughter might make for the next 5-10 years?

ben0x539 14y ago
> What is he planning to do? "Patch" every possible subconscious connections that his daughter might make for the next 5-10 years? Maybe the plan is to make a bunch of noise about it so eventually game creators get used to the idea of catering to both halves of their audience. I hope it works.
- mitchty 14y ago
  In some ways I hope it doesn't. Take the recent Deus Ex game, they steadfastly refused to offer a female view of the game. Their reasoning was this was Adam Jensens story, and he is male, certain in game interactions would only make sense in that context. That said, why we don't have more female videogame leads is beyond me. I'd like to see something like Deus Ex's opinionated take on games than say more of Mass Effect N's dual gender choice. The latter had some rather weird situations if you switched genders. Certain interactions became downright weird or even creepy.
- city41 14y ago
  But by no means is it "both halves." Game players are overwhelmingly male. And this has nothing to do with exposure or expectations, it's entirely possible that the female brain just isn't as interested in video games. My fiancée enjoys Mario on occasion (and does complain that the princess always needs rescuing), but she flat out does not get into games nearly as much as I do. She could if she wanted to, absolutely nothing holds her back. She is also not unusual in this regard, women as a whole are less interested in video games. So I disagree that game developers should feel obligated to cater to both sexes. Indeed, game developers should simply be allowed to make whatever games they please.

stcredzero 14y ago

> I think the idea is that when kids are growing up, they make subconscious connections and observations about the world around them. Let me say that, in my experience, this is absolutely true. I grew up in Western PA, in a place where we had to drive 50 miles to visit other asians, who weren't even also Korean. I certainly made subconscious connections and observations about the world, many of which were hugely skewed by my environment. For example, it took me until I was in my 20's to figure out that my parents were as sarcastic as any other people. Absent any Korean community in which to observe interactions in that cultural context, I absorbed this notion that Koreans just didn't do sarcasm, which is absolutely incorrect.

rayiner 14y ago
This is very interesting! I'm a Bengali raised in a mostly white surroundings, though not as much as say Western PA. I too perecive my parents as not using sarcasm, and it being cultural. Though occasionally my mom will crack a joke, which I find quite startling. I don't really speak the language very well, so I can't really follow very when they talk naturally with other Bengalis. I wonder how much is in there that I'm missing.
recoil 14y ago
In my case I assumed until I started primary school that all boys had blue eyes and all girls had brown eyes, because this observation just happened to hold for everyone in my immediate family as well as all of the neighbours' children that I played with.

tedunangst 14y ago

Obvious solution is obvious. Children need to be forced to play more Metroid.

saraid216 14y ago
And only Metroid? Or can you produce a list?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Portal.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  Here's your list, starting with Ms. Pac-Man http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/92-2287/ http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/92-2287/
- petitmiam 14y ago
  Jill Of The Jungle
- subsystem 14y ago
  Mirror's Edge
- hdctambien 14y ago
  Beyond Good and Evil American McGee's Alice Resident Evil Perfect Dark Old NES Games based on the Alien movies (Ripley) Donkey Kong Country 3 (Diddy Kong is the main character) Chrono Trigger's main hero is a male, but 3 of the other 6 playables are strong females (2 of the others are a Frog and a Robot) There are definitely more games with male protagonists than female, but there are enough to list.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    > Donkey Kong Country 3 (Diddy Kong is the main character) You meant Dixie.