6 ms·

This sentiment is very popular in Europe. From the perspective of the American, it's like, help was offered for 90% of the time in the Ukraine conflict, then we

by pedroma 6mo ago

This sentiment is very popular in Europe. From the perspective of the American, it's like, help was offered for 90% of the time in the Ukraine conflict, then we took a break and suddenly we are more an enemy than China. From my point of view, the pushing away is not one-sided like Europeans like to portray, but has been mutual for awhile.

jacquesm 6mo ago
I think when you start to threaten your former allies by wanting to attack/invade them you probably should be dinged in the trust department for that. The same goes for when you try to strongarm a country into fabricating evidence to shore up your lies. The USA was an ally in 1945 and has since steadily eroded that. In 2001 they briefly regained a lot of sympathy but squandered it just as fast and now we're at low tide. And I wonder how much lower it will go before people with common sense will be back at the helm and reparation of the relationship can begin, but I don't expect the aftershocks of this to be gone quickly. And no, help was not offered '90% of the time'. Most of the time it was just business in disguise, altruism did not factor into it as far as I can see.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- pedroma 6mo ago
  Would you say we're worse than China these days (if so, what % of the time did China help Ukraine in the conflict)?
  - jacquesm 6mo ago
    Both China and the USA have made many moves that benefit Putin. I would say neither party is a friend of Ukraine. China plays its own long games and the USA is being run by madmen. Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons.
    - pedroma 6mo ago
      >Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons. This is the perfect encapsulation of what I mean in my original response to you. This IS the popular European sentiment. And this is what is off-putting to many Americans. The weight of China and the US is not even worth preference, despite the US having contributed positively to the Ukrainian conflict and European defense. We are not even WORTHY of being placed above China, we're either just as bad or worse is the typical response I see.
      - jacquesm 6mo ago
        You seem to be completely out of touch with the way the USA has been behaving towards the EU as of late, maybe get with the times and then report back. Last I checked China hasn't threatened to take over either Canada or Greenland, has not started any major wars for which they expect the EU to pay for cleaning up their mess, has reasonably sane leadership and on top of that has been a fairly trustworthy business partner that does not engage in whim driven economic warfare. They also have a bunch of very dark sides that I am going to assume we are all familiar with. I really wonder why you think that the USA should be given a free pass for what it has done in the last decade. And that's before we get into human rights issues and other 'details'. Comparing yourself to China is not the flex you think it is. Your bio says that "Farming negative karma is not trolling when you're expressing your honest views." and that's all fine, you have a right to your honest views but if they're indistinguishable from trolling to the point that you feel you need to pre-empt that classification then maybe HN is not the place for you?
        SideburnsOfDoom 6mo ago
        I think that one of the reasons for this "popular European sentiment" is the purely emotional one - it's emotionally more affecting when someone who was a close friend starts behaving badly towards you, than when someone who was a colleague with no close relationship remains thus. The the popular European sentiment is understandable and IMHO correct though. Saying "it's off-putting" is no in way a coherent argument that it's wrong.
  - Quarrelsome 6mo ago
    I would suggest that China are currently a more reliable partner than the US because of their predictability, given that I cannot be sure whether or not this statement alone might result in a change of tariffs for my nation at the whim of America's king. I'm still looking for congress in all of this (did they ever even approve this war in Iran?!?) but idk if the republic is a thing anymore or not.
    - pedroma 6mo ago
      Yeah I can see that. The other poster is right about it being multi-faceted. My question is intentionally somewhat provocative. It forces someone to pick between two bad options, and I always gain respect for people who decide to pick one instead of intentionally avoiding it and just saying "oh they're both bad, idk".
      - Quarrelsome 6mo ago
        hopefully this will all start to settle down around the end of this year if congress gets its teeth back and hopefully by the end of 2028. If it doesn't.... well then I despair, as the world I once knew is over. Already within the subreddits of my nation there is an increasingly dismissive attitude to the historic alliances that kept us safe for around the last hundred years and I can't blame them. Especially if Hormuz remains blocked and the US just walks away leaving this pile of sick of its own creation on the floor. I imagine a new rather loose coalition might rise of such a status quo and its possible that China becomes a major player in that, given its likely desire as a major manufacturer to keep trade open and shipping flowing, which is the opposite of what the US has been doing since 2025.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 6mo ago
        > It forces someone to pick between two bad options, and I always gain respect for people who decide to pick one instead of intentionally avoiding it IDK, if someone sees that a question is bullshit and refuses to play along with it, you lose respect for them? This is not a heuristic that will help you in life.
angry_octet 6mo ago
This is absurdist Russian disinfo. If you're not Russian, your information sources are poisoned.
- pedroma 6mo ago
  Does this mean the person I'm responding to is a Russian disinfo agent?
  - angry_octet 6mo ago
    I make a distinction between the US and the Biden and Trump administrations. Biden was incompetent and timid, Trump is a greedy megalomaniac. The key problem is that the US system elected either of them. Both have savaged US interests in the name of putting America first, while actually acting for small vested interests, like cronies and the Israel lobby. Pretending America has been a strong ally is foolish. The Biden policy yo-yo has resulted in thousands of dead Ukrainians, while Trump has actively sided with Russia in negotiations and cut off meaningful aid. But Ukraine is now essential for NATO security. It is fortunate they see EU membership as their future, because a Russia or China aligned Ukraine would be a huge problem.
kergonath 6mo ago
> suddenly we are more an enemy than China That’s a straw man. Nobody argued that before you mentioned it.
watwut 6mo ago
America did not just "took break". It actively took Russian side in negotiations trying to make all the Russian wishes to happen. And now, after Europe bought missiles for Ukraine, USA is sending them to Iran despite them already being paid. And is easing sanctions on Russia. Also, threatening Greenland was not just "taking a break". Lying about what allies did in Iraq and Afghanistan was not just "taking a break". Insulting Europe, quite grossly, was not just "taking a break". And tariffs were not just "taking a break" either. For that matter, trying to make Europe more fascists is not "taking a break", it is "meddling in".
player1234 6mo ago
[dead]

by pedroma 6mo ago

jacquesm 6mo ago

I think when you start to threaten your former allies by wanting to attack/invade them you probably should be dinged in the trust department for that. The same goes for when you try to strongarm a country into fabricating evidence to shore up your lies. The USA was an ally in 1945 and has since steadily eroded that. In 2001 they briefly regained a lot of sympathy but squandered it just as fast and now we're at low tide. And I wonder how much lower it will go before people with common sense will be back at the helm and reparation of the relationship can begin, but I don't expect the aftershocks of this to be gone quickly. And no, help was not offered '90% of the time'. Most of the time it was just business in disguise, altruism did not factor into it as far as I can see.

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
pedroma 6mo ago
Would you say we're worse than China these days (if so, what % of the time did China help Ukraine in the conflict)?
- jacquesm 6mo ago
  Both China and the USA have made many moves that benefit Putin. I would say neither party is a friend of Ukraine. China plays its own long games and the USA is being run by madmen. Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons.
  - pedroma 6mo ago
    >Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons. This is the perfect encapsulation of what I mean in my original response to you. This IS the popular European sentiment. And this is what is off-putting to many Americans. The weight of China and the US is not even worth preference, despite the US having contributed positively to the Ukrainian conflict and European defense. We are not even WORTHY of being placed above China, we're either just as bad or worse is the typical response I see.
    - jacquesm 6mo ago
      You seem to be completely out of touch with the way the USA has been behaving towards the EU as of late, maybe get with the times and then report back. Last I checked China hasn't threatened to take over either Canada or Greenland, has not started any major wars for which they expect the EU to pay for cleaning up their mess, has reasonably sane leadership and on top of that has been a fairly trustworthy business partner that does not engage in whim driven economic warfare. They also have a bunch of very dark sides that I am going to assume we are all familiar with. I really wonder why you think that the USA should be given a free pass for what it has done in the last decade. And that's before we get into human rights issues and other 'details'. Comparing yourself to China is not the flex you think it is. Your bio says that "Farming negative karma is not trolling when you're expressing your honest views." and that's all fine, you have a right to your honest views but if they're indistinguishable from trolling to the point that you feel you need to pre-empt that classification then maybe HN is not the place for you?
      - SideburnsOfDoom 6mo ago
        I think that one of the reasons for this "popular European sentiment" is the purely emotional one - it's emotionally more affecting when someone who was a close friend starts behaving badly towards you, than when someone who was a colleague with no close relationship remains thus. The the popular European sentiment is understandable and IMHO correct though. Saying "it's off-putting" is no in way a coherent argument that it's wrong.
- Quarrelsome 6mo ago
  I would suggest that China are currently a more reliable partner than the US because of their predictability, given that I cannot be sure whether or not this statement alone might result in a change of tariffs for my nation at the whim of America's king. I'm still looking for congress in all of this (did they ever even approve this war in Iran?!?) but idk if the republic is a thing anymore or not.
  - pedroma 6mo ago
    Yeah I can see that. The other poster is right about it being multi-faceted. My question is intentionally somewhat provocative. It forces someone to pick between two bad options, and I always gain respect for people who decide to pick one instead of intentionally avoiding it and just saying "oh they're both bad, idk".
    - Quarrelsome 6mo ago
      hopefully this will all start to settle down around the end of this year if congress gets its teeth back and hopefully by the end of 2028. If it doesn't.... well then I despair, as the world I once knew is over. Already within the subreddits of my nation there is an increasingly dismissive attitude to the historic alliances that kept us safe for around the last hundred years and I can't blame them. Especially if Hormuz remains blocked and the US just walks away leaving this pile of sick of its own creation on the floor. I imagine a new rather loose coalition might rise of such a status quo and its possible that China becomes a major player in that, given its likely desire as a major manufacturer to keep trade open and shipping flowing, which is the opposite of what the US has been doing since 2025.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 6mo ago
      > It forces someone to pick between two bad options, and I always gain respect for people who decide to pick one instead of intentionally avoiding it IDK, if someone sees that a question is bullshit and refuses to play along with it, you lose respect for them? This is not a heuristic that will help you in life.

angry_octet 6mo ago

This is absurdist Russian disinfo. If you're not Russian, your information sources are poisoned.

pedroma 6mo ago
Does this mean the person I'm responding to is a Russian disinfo agent?
- angry_octet 6mo ago
  I make a distinction between the US and the Biden and Trump administrations. Biden was incompetent and timid, Trump is a greedy megalomaniac. The key problem is that the US system elected either of them. Both have savaged US interests in the name of putting America first, while actually acting for small vested interests, like cronies and the Israel lobby. Pretending America has been a strong ally is foolish. The Biden policy yo-yo has resulted in thousands of dead Ukrainians, while Trump has actively sided with Russia in negotiations and cut off meaningful aid. But Ukraine is now essential for NATO security. It is fortunate they see EU membership as their future, because a Russia or China aligned Ukraine would be a huge problem.

kergonath 6mo ago

> suddenly we are more an enemy than China That’s a straw man. Nobody argued that before you mentioned it.

watwut 6mo ago

America did not just "took break". It actively took Russian side in negotiations trying to make all the Russian wishes to happen. And now, after Europe bought missiles for Ukraine, USA is sending them to Iran despite them already being paid. And is easing sanctions on Russia. Also, threatening Greenland was not just "taking a break". Lying about what allies did in Iraq and Afghanistan was not just "taking a break". Insulting Europe, quite grossly, was not just "taking a break". And tariffs were not just "taking a break" either. For that matter, trying to make Europe more fascists is not "taking a break", it is "meddling in".

player1234 6mo ago

[dead]