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> We could learn from our allies in Ukraine. Should have worn a suit. The US is not an ally of Ukraine, it sees Ukraine as a nuisance that should have rolled

> We could learn from our allies in Ukraine. Should have worn a suit. The US is not an ally of Ukraine, it sees Ukraine as a nuisance that should have rolled over long ago but somehow refuses to and because the US still needs Europe for a bit longer (but maybe not that much longer) they're still playing ball as long as Europe pays (as it should, but that's besides the point). Allies come to each others aid, the US has all but abandoned Ukraine after Trump came to power and did far less than it could have done early on. Why you would expect Ukraine to be generous after the numerous put downs and actions that were clearly organized to benefit Putin is a mystery to me.

pedroma 7mo ago
This sentiment is very popular in Europe. From the perspective of the American, it's like, help was offered for 90% of the time in the Ukraine conflict, then we took a break and suddenly we are more an enemy than China. From my point of view, the pushing away is not one-sided like Europeans like to portray, but has been mutual for awhile.
- jacquesm 7mo ago
  I think when you start to threaten your former allies by wanting to attack/invade them you probably should be dinged in the trust department for that. The same goes for when you try to strongarm a country into fabricating evidence to shore up your lies. The USA was an ally in 1945 and has since steadily eroded that. In 2001 they briefly regained a lot of sympathy but squandered it just as fast and now we're at low tide. And I wonder how much lower it will go before people with common sense will be back at the helm and reparation of the relationship can begin, but I don't expect the aftershocks of this to be gone quickly. And no, help was not offered '90% of the time'. Most of the time it was just business in disguise, altruism did not factor into it as far as I can see.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - pedroma 7mo ago
    Would you say we're worse than China these days (if so, what % of the time did China help Ukraine in the conflict)?
    - jacquesm 7mo ago
      Both China and the USA have made many moves that benefit Putin. I would say neither party is a friend of Ukraine. China plays its own long games and the USA is being run by madmen. Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons.
      - pedroma 7mo ago
        >Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons. This is the perfect encapsulation of what I mean in my original response to you. This IS the popular European sentiment. And this is what is off-putting to many Americans. The weight of China and the US is not even worth preference, despite the US having contributed positively to the Ukrainian conflict and European defense. We are not even WORTHY of being placed above China, we're either just as bad or worse is the typical response I see.
        jacquesm 7mo ago
        You seem to be completely out of touch with the way the USA has been behaving towards the EU as of late, maybe get with the times and then report back. Last I checked China hasn't threatened to take over either Canada or Greenland, has not started any major wars for which they expect the EU to pay for cleaning up their mess, has reasonably sane leadership and on top of that has been a fairly trustworthy business partner that does not engage in whim driven economic warfare. They also have a bunch of very dark sides that I am going to assume we are all familiar with. I really wonder why you think that the USA should be given a free pass for what it has done in the last decade. And that's before we get into human rights issues and other 'details'. Comparing yourself to China is not the flex you think it is. Your bio says that "Farming negative karma is not trolling when you're expressing your honest views." and that's all fine, you have a right to your honest views but if they're indistinguishable from trolling to the point that you feel you need to pre-empt that classification then maybe HN is not the place for you?
- angry_octet 7mo ago
  This is absurdist Russian disinfo. If you're not Russian, your information sources are poisoned.
  - pedroma 7mo ago
    Does this mean the person I'm responding to is a Russian disinfo agent?
    - angry_octet 7mo ago
      I make a distinction between the US and the Biden and Trump administrations. Biden was incompetent and timid, Trump is a greedy megalomaniac. The key problem is that the US system elected either of them. Both have savaged US interests in the name of putting America first, while actually acting for small vested interests, like cronies and the Israel lobby. Pretending America has been a strong ally is foolish. The Biden policy yo-yo has resulted in thousands of dead Ukrainians, while Trump has actively sided with Russia in negotiations and cut off meaningful aid. But Ukraine is now essential for NATO security. It is fortunate they see EU membership as their future, because a Russia or China aligned Ukraine would be a huge problem.
- kergonath 7mo ago
  > suddenly we are more an enemy than China That’s a straw man. Nobody argued that before you mentioned it.
- watwut 7mo ago
  America did not just "took break". It actively took Russian side in negotiations trying to make all the Russian wishes to happen. And now, after Europe bought missiles for Ukraine, USA is sending them to Iran despite them already being paid. And is easing sanctions on Russia. Also, threatening Greenland was not just "taking a break". Lying about what allies did in Iraq and Afghanistan was not just "taking a break". Insulting Europe, quite grossly, was not just "taking a break". And tariffs were not just "taking a break" either. For that matter, trying to make Europe more fascists is not "taking a break", it is "meddling in".
- player1234 7mo ago
  [dead]

pedroma 7mo ago

This sentiment is very popular in Europe. From the perspective of the American, it's like, help was offered for 90% of the time in the Ukraine conflict, then we took a break and suddenly we are more an enemy than China. From my point of view, the pushing away is not one-sided like Europeans like to portray, but has been mutual for awhile.

jacquesm 7mo ago
I think when you start to threaten your former allies by wanting to attack/invade them you probably should be dinged in the trust department for that. The same goes for when you try to strongarm a country into fabricating evidence to shore up your lies. The USA was an ally in 1945 and has since steadily eroded that. In 2001 they briefly regained a lot of sympathy but squandered it just as fast and now we're at low tide. And I wonder how much lower it will go before people with common sense will be back at the helm and reparation of the relationship can begin, but I don't expect the aftershocks of this to be gone quickly. And no, help was not offered '90% of the time'. Most of the time it was just business in disguise, altruism did not factor into it as far as I can see.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- pedroma 7mo ago
  Would you say we're worse than China these days (if so, what % of the time did China help Ukraine in the conflict)?
  - jacquesm 7mo ago
    Both China and the USA have made many moves that benefit Putin. I would say neither party is a friend of Ukraine. China plays its own long games and the USA is being run by madmen. Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons.
    - pedroma 7mo ago
      >Why do I have to prefer one over the other? I don't like the way either is behaving on the world stage, and each for different reasons. This is the perfect encapsulation of what I mean in my original response to you. This IS the popular European sentiment. And this is what is off-putting to many Americans. The weight of China and the US is not even worth preference, despite the US having contributed positively to the Ukrainian conflict and European defense. We are not even WORTHY of being placed above China, we're either just as bad or worse is the typical response I see.
      - jacquesm 7mo ago
        You seem to be completely out of touch with the way the USA has been behaving towards the EU as of late, maybe get with the times and then report back. Last I checked China hasn't threatened to take over either Canada or Greenland, has not started any major wars for which they expect the EU to pay for cleaning up their mess, has reasonably sane leadership and on top of that has been a fairly trustworthy business partner that does not engage in whim driven economic warfare. They also have a bunch of very dark sides that I am going to assume we are all familiar with. I really wonder why you think that the USA should be given a free pass for what it has done in the last decade. And that's before we get into human rights issues and other 'details'. Comparing yourself to China is not the flex you think it is. Your bio says that "Farming negative karma is not trolling when you're expressing your honest views." and that's all fine, you have a right to your honest views but if they're indistinguishable from trolling to the point that you feel you need to pre-empt that classification then maybe HN is not the place for you?
angry_octet 7mo ago
This is absurdist Russian disinfo. If you're not Russian, your information sources are poisoned.
- pedroma 7mo ago
  Does this mean the person I'm responding to is a Russian disinfo agent?
  - angry_octet 7mo ago
    I make a distinction between the US and the Biden and Trump administrations. Biden was incompetent and timid, Trump is a greedy megalomaniac. The key problem is that the US system elected either of them. Both have savaged US interests in the name of putting America first, while actually acting for small vested interests, like cronies and the Israel lobby. Pretending America has been a strong ally is foolish. The Biden policy yo-yo has resulted in thousands of dead Ukrainians, while Trump has actively sided with Russia in negotiations and cut off meaningful aid. But Ukraine is now essential for NATO security. It is fortunate they see EU membership as their future, because a Russia or China aligned Ukraine would be a huge problem.
kergonath 7mo ago
> suddenly we are more an enemy than China That’s a straw man. Nobody argued that before you mentioned it.
watwut 7mo ago
America did not just "took break". It actively took Russian side in negotiations trying to make all the Russian wishes to happen. And now, after Europe bought missiles for Ukraine, USA is sending them to Iran despite them already being paid. And is easing sanctions on Russia. Also, threatening Greenland was not just "taking a break". Lying about what allies did in Iraq and Afghanistan was not just "taking a break". Insulting Europe, quite grossly, was not just "taking a break". And tariffs were not just "taking a break" either. For that matter, trying to make Europe more fascists is not "taking a break", it is "meddling in".
player1234 7mo ago
[dead]