5 ms·

> Games are doomed by femininity. Across media, genres marketed toward women are deemed lesser than their masculine counterparts: romance novels are trashy, chi

> Games are doomed by femininity. Across media, genres marketed toward women are deemed lesser than their masculine counterparts: romance novels are trashy, chick flicks are shallow, and pop idols are embarrassing This idea is trotted out but is really blatantly false when you think of it. Jayne Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Little Women, Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility. These books have all withstood the test of time and are considered fine literature but are absolutely feminine. Romance novels are considered less than because they are not good books, just in the sense that Conan the Barbarian is also considered not fine literature despite being dripping in masculinity. Manhattan, Annie Hall, When Harry Met Sally. There are tons of "chick flicks" that are considered great films. Some directors like Catherine Breillat are extremely feminist in their works and well regarded directors with well regarded films in cinephile circles.

torginus 7mo ago
I mean Conan the Barbarian literally exists (by the authors own admission) because he wanted to write historical fiction but couldn't be bothered to do the research.
seneca 7mo ago
Acknowledging that I'm not adding much to the conversation here, but I just wanted to respond to say you actually changed my opinion with this post. Those examples are slop not because their category is bad, but because most things are slop. That's fairly clearly true once it's pointed out.
TulliusCicero 7mo ago
Bringing up books is particularly funny considering that reading, writing, editing, and publishing of said books are all things that are dominated by women. And yeah most romance novels are trashy, but it's not like milslop Clancyfics are better. Most people just want some shallow entertainment and that's fine.
- tialaramex 7mo ago
  Actually Romance is probably a stronger novel genre than say Science Fantasy. The bulk publishers run several lines of novel length stories you can pay for, you can pick how "spicy" is OK for you (some cultures are like "OK, yes I like a plot but there is fucking in this story right? Do NOT cut away from the action"; Other readers will be angry if there's so much as a French kiss between our happily-ever-after couple, even if it's only alluded to and not actually described) as well as themes (Doctors? Werewolves? 18th century Dukes? Billionaires?). If you want pulp science fantasy there aren't a lot of options AFAIK. On the other hand for shorts science fantasy is much better off. Apparently anybody who can knock out six pages of romance tends to use somebody else's character development as shorthand and so can only publish to AO3 but if you can knock together a decent SF story in six pages that's worth some cash from a pro or semi-pro magazine. Even pretty hard† SF, which is not a common taste, can shift enough copies of a bunch of shorts to make economic sense. † Science Fiction is graded "harder" the more likely that if you ask "How does that work?" about something in the story the author gets as excited as Hank Green and starts explaining details that may or may not just be facts about our universe which they've incorporated into their story -- as opposed to "A wizard did it" or "That's not important". The diametric opposite of the MST3K mantra.
  - TulliusCicero 7mo ago
    In terms of popularity absolutely, romantasy is super popular these days. Science fiction and fantasy and science fantasy that appeal to men do okay, but they're definitely not as big.
- ecshafer 7mo ago
  I think we agree largely. My inclusion of Conan there as an example is a stand in for any male dominated slop fiction. Whether that's milslop Tom Clancy stuff, or Warhammer novels, Video Game adaptions, etc. There are millions of books for boys/men that are total slop. So its not really that its books for men vs women. If it was just things that are for men is considered good, then we would be heralding Tom Clancy as a modern day Shakespeare.
- genthree 7mo ago

torginus 7mo ago

I mean Conan the Barbarian literally exists (by the authors own admission) because he wanted to write historical fiction but couldn't be bothered to do the research.

seneca 7mo ago

Acknowledging that I'm not adding much to the conversation here, but I just wanted to respond to say you actually changed my opinion with this post. Those examples are slop not because their category is bad, but because most things are slop. That's fairly clearly true once it's pointed out.

TulliusCicero 7mo ago

Bringing up books is particularly funny considering that reading, writing, editing, and publishing of said books are all things that are dominated by women. And yeah most romance novels are trashy, but it's not like milslop Clancyfics are better. Most people just want some shallow entertainment and that's fine.

tialaramex 7mo ago
Actually Romance is probably a stronger novel genre than say Science Fantasy. The bulk publishers run several lines of novel length stories you can pay for, you can pick how "spicy" is OK for you (some cultures are like "OK, yes I like a plot but there is fucking in this story right? Do NOT cut away from the action"; Other readers will be angry if there's so much as a French kiss between our happily-ever-after couple, even if it's only alluded to and not actually described) as well as themes (Doctors? Werewolves? 18th century Dukes? Billionaires?). If you want pulp science fantasy there aren't a lot of options AFAIK. On the other hand for shorts science fantasy is much better off. Apparently anybody who can knock out six pages of romance tends to use somebody else's character development as shorthand and so can only publish to AO3 but if you can knock together a decent SF story in six pages that's worth some cash from a pro or semi-pro magazine. Even pretty hard† SF, which is not a common taste, can shift enough copies of a bunch of shorts to make economic sense. † Science Fiction is graded "harder" the more likely that if you ask "How does that work?" about something in the story the author gets as excited as Hank Green and starts explaining details that may or may not just be facts about our universe which they've incorporated into their story -- as opposed to "A wizard did it" or "That's not important". The diametric opposite of the MST3K mantra.
- TulliusCicero 7mo ago
  In terms of popularity absolutely, romantasy is super popular these days. Science fiction and fantasy and science fantasy that appeal to men do okay, but they're definitely not as big.
ecshafer 7mo ago
I think we agree largely. My inclusion of Conan there as an example is a stand in for any male dominated slop fiction. Whether that's milslop Tom Clancy stuff, or Warhammer novels, Video Game adaptions, etc. There are millions of books for boys/men that are total slop. So its not really that its books for men vs women. If it was just things that are for men is considered good, then we would be heralding Tom Clancy as a modern day Shakespeare.
genthree 7mo ago