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> As a result, today is your last working day. As a European, I never realized that this is allowed under US labor law. That is absolutely insane. EDIT: some

> As a result, today is your last working day. As a European, I never realized that this is allowed under US labor law. That is absolutely insane. EDIT: some commentors have pointed out that the workers collect severance and unemployment --- I was not aware this is law in California, and that changes matters. I would, though, still find being suddenly out of a job fairly traumatic.

heraldgeezer 7mo ago
[flagged]
IncreasePosts 7mo ago
Why? They get a severance which is going to be multiple months salary, as well as approximately $2000/mo unemployment from the state (assuming in California). Personally, I'd rather just get the money and not have to work, rather than be forced to come into the office knowing I was getting canned in 3 months or whatever
- niek_pas 7mo ago
  I did not know they got severance. In any case, I'm still not sure I'd prefer that scenario --- coming into your work to suddenly find you've been terminated and subsequently sitting on your ass for a couple months while looking for another job seems pretty emotionally damaging to me, but to each their own.
  - jakeydus 7mo ago
    I got laid off at a previous job and they asked me to stay on six months to train my replacement(s) and finish my project(s). In return I'd get my normal severance and a significant bonus for staying the whole time. I did so and worked hard for the entire time. A few months later I got lunch with my former manager and they informed me they would have absolutely coasted the entire time. In hindsight, I'm not sure why I put the effort in. Live and learn, I guess.
lotsofpulp 7mo ago
It's insane to force businesses to take on the government's responsibilities (providing food/shelter/income/energy security). A buyer and seller should be free to start and stop buying and selling whenever they want, absent contracts stating otherwise. The government should be there to directly support all of the people, not to police and cajole businesses to support some of the people that happened to be hired by a business.
- niek_pas 7mo ago
  I completely agree, and apparently in California this is already the case --- I had no idea. In most contexts, though, I'd argue governments fall down on this task completely and people are, unfortunately, still very dependent on their employer. Same-day termination seems very socially risky in those cases.
- rwmj 7mo ago
  The US government doesn't exactly go out of its way to support people either.
sowbug 7mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
tombert 7mo ago
The at-will firing is just how it is in the US, but I do find it odd how accepting we've become with these corporations massively overhiring. If they have to fire twenty percent of the company, shouldn't that be a signal to investors that the people in charge are morons for overhiring thirty thousand people in the first place? Software engineers aren't cheap; assuming an average compensation of $250,000/year (which I think is pretty conservative if you count total comp like insurance and stock) then that's 7.5 billion dollars of investor money they're wasting per year.
- niek_pas 7mo ago
  Yeah, the "just how it is" part was the part I wasn't aware of. Sibling comment has pointed out that apparently the US is the only country in the world where this is the case. And totally agree on the latter point.
  - tombert 7mo ago
    I'm not an economist, but I have heard that there's an argument to be made the easy firing also makes it so that it's easier to hire too, so it creates more jobs. That's one of those things that sounds like bullshit, so I don't know that I believe it, but that's what I've heard anyway.
    - Izkata 7mo ago
      The other part is that at-will goes both ways: you can just walk out of a bad job with no legal repercussions. Not always the best idea due for social/professional ones, though.
      - oblio 7mo ago
        That argument is definitely BS, though. What do you think happens in the most restrictive labor market in Europe? We're not slaves. There is a short notice period, usually 1 month or even shorter (notice periods for companies are longer, usually double or longer). And if it's a bad job people just phone it in, take medical leave, etc during their notice period. Hardly the end of the world to last 1 month.
tomjen3 7mo ago
Dane here. I have had more than one coworker get that treatment. Sure the company still has to payout salary, as per the contract, but plenty of companies do not want laid of people around.
Aurornis 7mo ago
They are done working but will collect severance pay, typically scaled by years of service. Oracle software engineering compensation for mid-level software engineers is in the $200-300K range. The top of their scale extends into the $400K to $1 million range. From what I've seen, laid off employees will receive a minimum of 1 month of their compensation with 1 week of pay for every year worked, plus any remaining unused vacation time. So a mid-level employee who has worked their a few years and hasn't drawn their vacation balance to 0.0 could receive $30-50K or more beyond this date.
ahtihn 7mo ago
As a European, this seems normal? When someone is fired, they generally stop working immediately while getting paid through the notice period.
- Aurornis 7mo ago
  I have to be honest that I'm confused by the comment, too. Including the edit about how being out of work would be traumatic, as if losing a job was unique to the United States.
  - niek_pas 7mo ago
    My point was that going from (let's say) 'employed, productive member of the workforce, with social relationships at work' to 'sitting at home collecting unemployment' with no transition, no coaching, in the scope of 5 minutes seems like a traumatic rupture. (I'm not saying I _know_ better, just how I think I would _experience_ such a thing.) Losing a job happens everywhere, but there are different ways to handle it, I guess.
    - Aurornis 7mo ago
      I've been laid off. It's not fun and there a lot of emotions to process at first. Let me tell you, though. All of the gestures that come from the company doing the layoff like coaching services or transition resources felt pretty useless. They were actually trying, but everything in it seemed more like it was to soothe their conscience than to help me out. When other people get laid off I recommend they try not to put a lot of expectations into any transition services provided by their ex-employer because your time is better invested in your own job search.
      - bombcar 7mo ago
        The best "layoff" support I've received has been early notice (e.g., you're laid off at the end of next month, but we give fuck-all cares if you even bother coming in anymore, feel free to) and personal support from managers/those remaining behind. Anything an employer can do at scale can be reduced to cash, and cash is king.
tomjakubowski 7mo ago
> collect severance and unemployment --- I was not aware this is law in California, Unemployment benefits in California are capped at $450/week, and you only get 26 weeks of it. It's helpful, but doesn't even cover housing costs for many individuals, let alone for families. I don't think there's a state law requiring severance. It's often offered by the employer if the terminated employee agrees to sign an NDA.
- drmath 7mo ago
  The California WARN act effectively requires 2 months severance for large layoffs at large companies (or 2 months notice, but companies almost always prefer severance).
- gamblor956 7mo ago
  Both California and federal law require 60 days notice for mass layoffs. The CA WARN Act has more protections for workers than the federal WARN Act, i.e., it also applies to part-time workers. In California, it is illegal to require a terminated employee to sign an NDA to receive severance paid to waive the required WARN notice. A company attempting to enforce such an NDA would key face judicial sanction in court (including paying the former employee's legal fees) and likely pay fines to the CA Labor Dept as well.
Rapzid 7mo ago
All the extra notice in the world wouldn't make me want to trade our tech jobs market and salaries for that of Europe's.
not_your_vase 7mo ago
Such termination happens very much in Europe also. I have lived in Europe my whole life, half of my working life inside the EU, half of it outside. And I have seen this happening bot in- and outside: on the head-roll day HR sends a friendly message asking you to pay a visit in their office. While you do that, security folks clear your desk, and a few minutes later you are outside the building with the signed paperwork in your hands. And suddenly another guy gets a friendly message from HR... Of course the severance is paid according to the law - but such sudden (mass)termination does happen here too.
gwbas1c 7mo ago
In general, the reason why US companies often are abrupt / surprise is because they fear retaliation. I once was given about 6 weeks notice in the US, with a promise that if I completed a project I would be given severance. Given the situation I was in, where the product would be "done", it was a good situation to be in.
monksy 7mo ago
Severence is not required by law but its usually a protective measure by the company to avoid being sued for misdeeds they put people through before and during the layoffs. Unemployment is not enough for people to live on. In some cases, it barely covers health insurance which can be 800$/month for a single person. (You can get cheaper plans but they start you back on your deducible)

heraldgeezer 7mo ago

[flagged]

IncreasePosts 7mo ago

Why? They get a severance which is going to be multiple months salary, as well as approximately $2000/mo unemployment from the state (assuming in California). Personally, I'd rather just get the money and not have to work, rather than be forced to come into the office knowing I was getting canned in 3 months or whatever

niek_pas 7mo ago
I did not know they got severance. In any case, I'm still not sure I'd prefer that scenario --- coming into your work to suddenly find you've been terminated and subsequently sitting on your ass for a couple months while looking for another job seems pretty emotionally damaging to me, but to each their own.
- jakeydus 7mo ago
  I got laid off at a previous job and they asked me to stay on six months to train my replacement(s) and finish my project(s). In return I'd get my normal severance and a significant bonus for staying the whole time. I did so and worked hard for the entire time. A few months later I got lunch with my former manager and they informed me they would have absolutely coasted the entire time. In hindsight, I'm not sure why I put the effort in. Live and learn, I guess.

lotsofpulp 7mo ago

It's insane to force businesses to take on the government's responsibilities (providing food/shelter/income/energy security). A buyer and seller should be free to start and stop buying and selling whenever they want, absent contracts stating otherwise. The government should be there to directly support all of the people, not to police and cajole businesses to support some of the people that happened to be hired by a business.

niek_pas 7mo ago
I completely agree, and apparently in California this is already the case --- I had no idea. In most contexts, though, I'd argue governments fall down on this task completely and people are, unfortunately, still very dependent on their employer. Same-day termination seems very socially risky in those cases.
rwmj 7mo ago
The US government doesn't exactly go out of its way to support people either.

sowbug 7mo ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

tombert 7mo ago

The at-will firing is just how it is in the US, but I do find it odd how accepting we've become with these corporations massively overhiring. If they have to fire twenty percent of the company, shouldn't that be a signal to investors that the people in charge are morons for overhiring thirty thousand people in the first place? Software engineers aren't cheap; assuming an average compensation of $250,000/year (which I think is pretty conservative if you count total comp like insurance and stock) then that's 7.5 billion dollars of investor money they're wasting per year.

niek_pas 7mo ago
Yeah, the "just how it is" part was the part I wasn't aware of. Sibling comment has pointed out that apparently the US is the only country in the world where this is the case. And totally agree on the latter point.
- tombert 7mo ago
  I'm not an economist, but I have heard that there's an argument to be made the easy firing also makes it so that it's easier to hire too, so it creates more jobs. That's one of those things that sounds like bullshit, so I don't know that I believe it, but that's what I've heard anyway.
  - Izkata 7mo ago
    The other part is that at-will goes both ways: you can just walk out of a bad job with no legal repercussions. Not always the best idea due for social/professional ones, though.
    - oblio 7mo ago
      That argument is definitely BS, though. What do you think happens in the most restrictive labor market in Europe? We're not slaves. There is a short notice period, usually 1 month or even shorter (notice periods for companies are longer, usually double or longer). And if it's a bad job people just phone it in, take medical leave, etc during their notice period. Hardly the end of the world to last 1 month.

tomjen3 7mo ago

Dane here. I have had more than one coworker get that treatment. Sure the company still has to payout salary, as per the contract, but plenty of companies do not want laid of people around.

Aurornis 7mo ago

They are done working but will collect severance pay, typically scaled by years of service. Oracle software engineering compensation for mid-level software engineers is in the $200-300K range. The top of their scale extends into the $400K to $1 million range. From what I've seen, laid off employees will receive a minimum of 1 month of their compensation with 1 week of pay for every year worked, plus any remaining unused vacation time. So a mid-level employee who has worked their a few years and hasn't drawn their vacation balance to 0.0 could receive $30-50K or more beyond this date.

ahtihn 7mo ago

As a European, this seems normal? When someone is fired, they generally stop working immediately while getting paid through the notice period.

Aurornis 7mo ago
I have to be honest that I'm confused by the comment, too. Including the edit about how being out of work would be traumatic, as if losing a job was unique to the United States.
- niek_pas 7mo ago
  My point was that going from (let's say) 'employed, productive member of the workforce, with social relationships at work' to 'sitting at home collecting unemployment' with no transition, no coaching, in the scope of 5 minutes seems like a traumatic rupture. (I'm not saying I _know_ better, just how I think I would _experience_ such a thing.) Losing a job happens everywhere, but there are different ways to handle it, I guess.
  - Aurornis 7mo ago
    I've been laid off. It's not fun and there a lot of emotions to process at first. Let me tell you, though. All of the gestures that come from the company doing the layoff like coaching services or transition resources felt pretty useless. They were actually trying, but everything in it seemed more like it was to soothe their conscience than to help me out. When other people get laid off I recommend they try not to put a lot of expectations into any transition services provided by their ex-employer because your time is better invested in your own job search.
    - bombcar 7mo ago
      The best "layoff" support I've received has been early notice (e.g., you're laid off at the end of next month, but we give fuck-all cares if you even bother coming in anymore, feel free to) and personal support from managers/those remaining behind. Anything an employer can do at scale can be reduced to cash, and cash is king.

tomjakubowski 7mo ago

> collect severance and unemployment --- I was not aware this is law in California, Unemployment benefits in California are capped at $450/week, and you only get 26 weeks of it. It's helpful, but doesn't even cover housing costs for many individuals, let alone for families. I don't think there's a state law requiring severance. It's often offered by the employer if the terminated employee agrees to sign an NDA.

drmath 7mo ago
The California WARN act effectively requires 2 months severance for large layoffs at large companies (or 2 months notice, but companies almost always prefer severance).
gamblor956 7mo ago
Both California and federal law require 60 days notice for mass layoffs. The CA WARN Act has more protections for workers than the federal WARN Act, i.e., it also applies to part-time workers. In California, it is illegal to require a terminated employee to sign an NDA to receive severance paid to waive the required WARN notice. A company attempting to enforce such an NDA would key face judicial sanction in court (including paying the former employee's legal fees) and likely pay fines to the CA Labor Dept as well.

Rapzid 7mo ago

All the extra notice in the world wouldn't make me want to trade our tech jobs market and salaries for that of Europe's.

not_your_vase 7mo ago

Such termination happens very much in Europe also. I have lived in Europe my whole life, half of my working life inside the EU, half of it outside. And I have seen this happening bot in- and outside: on the head-roll day HR sends a friendly message asking you to pay a visit in their office. While you do that, security folks clear your desk, and a few minutes later you are outside the building with the signed paperwork in your hands. And suddenly another guy gets a friendly message from HR... Of course the severance is paid according to the law - but such sudden (mass)termination does happen here too.

gwbas1c 7mo ago

In general, the reason why US companies often are abrupt / surprise is because they fear retaliation. I once was given about 6 weeks notice in the US, with a promise that if I completed a project I would be given severance. Given the situation I was in, where the product would be "done", it was a good situation to be in.

monksy 7mo ago

Severence is not required by law but its usually a protective measure by the company to avoid being sued for misdeeds they put people through before and during the layoffs. Unemployment is not enough for people to live on. In some cases, it barely covers health insurance which can be 800$/month for a single person. (You can get cheaper plans but they start you back on your deducible)