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I'm really bullish on lean manufacturing and vertically integrated startups, and I love that their using CA cotton (my family owns a ranch in the valley that gr

I'm really bullish on lean manufacturing and vertically integrated startups, and I love that their using CA cotton (my family owns a ranch in the valley that grows cotton) ... but I'm really skeptical of these startups that say "we're going to disrupt [Luxury Designer Brand X] because we can make the same shirt and charge less". Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of these brands are riding on their brand equity, not the superior quality of their apparel. It just seems like a bad way to position yourself, IMO.

wsul 14y ago
callmeed, you should drop me an email at william [at] fromholden.com, we're always looking for new suppliers, and help understanding deeper into the supply chain! What we think is disruptive is the ability to be a trusted go-to site/brand, while not having to support the overhead of retail stores -- inventory, labor, etc are no joke. If we offer a superior product at a lower price, and you buy from us and enjoy it, we think you'll be back over and over -- that means we can keep margins a bit lower, and earn a good revenue stream from each supporter over a long period of time. It is a different model. We think we can continue to communicate new things you'll enjoy, and that is something traditional retail just can't do well. They largely have to wait for you to return, or spend absurd amounts on television and magazine advertising in hopes you'll come back. I do think it is a disruptive model; but some things remain the same -- quality matters, and your brand represents who you are. Further, we think in this day-in-age, who you are is increasingly important. A lot of old school apparel brands are a fabrication of some fantasy land... we can't and won't do that. Social media is our mouth piece and only authenticity carries.
nvarsj 14y ago
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of these brands are riding on their brand equity, not the superior quality of their apparel. I think you're wrong in terms of disruption. The people who go by brand equity, in my opinion, are the uninformed consumer. This tends to be the 30 year old+ demographic, people who don't know how to exploit the internet. On the other hand, you have 20 year olds and younger that are extremely informed due to familiarity with internet discussions. The rate of information is incredibly fast in this case, and word of mouth can be a powerful thing. And this group is only getting larger and getting more buying power. In fact, there's been a large rise in direct-to-consumer apparel retailers, and by all accounts they are doing very well. Take a look at Everlane for example.
- rada 14y ago
  People 30+ don't use the internet? http://pewinternet.org/Trend-Data-(Adults)/Whos-Online.aspx http://pewinternet.org/Trend-Data-(Adults)/Whos-Online.aspx 20s and younger group is getting larger? http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p25-1138.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p25-1138.pdf Everlane doing very well? Launched weeks ago. "Extremely informed" indeed.
  - tehayj 14y ago
    Plus Everlane still produces in low cost countries...
  - akanet 14y ago
    Everlane employee here. We're a year old. Here's an infographic with some of our growth stats: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mctj8bQNXI1qf7nhfo1_1280.jpg http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mctj8bQNXI1qf7nhfo1_1280.j...
  - uriah 14y ago
    Everlane has been around for a couple years now.
    - wsul 14y ago
      Everlane has done a great job. We're big fans of a couple of their designs.
    - rada 14y ago
      Looks like they launched a year ago. I went off a blog link that said it was this month, I was wrong. @akanet - looks like you were hellbanned? Not sure if it's because you posted this infographic of your company's growth: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mctj8bQNXI1qf7nhfo1_1280.jpg http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mctj8bQNXI1qf7nhfo1_1280.j... ... which doesn't seem to deserve a ban. FWIW I really like the Everlane website and the products look great. I am sorry you got caught in the crossfire - my comment wasn't intended to single out Everlane but rather to give concrete examples of the parent comment being chock-full of bad information. (Nevertheless, even with your impressive growth, I'd like to point out that at 22 employees and 71,000 t-shirts sold, you have a long way to go before you are not bleeding big. Not exactly the grown-up definition of "doing well" - which was, of course, parent's example, not yours - so you cannot be blamed for it.)
jonnathanson 14y ago
Quality seems to be making a comeback in the US, especially in menswear. We've entered an age where trial is cheaper than ever, and many online sellers offer nearly unconditional return guarantees. The reason large luxury brands compete on image, and not necessarily on quality, is because they can. They've taken years to get there. Many of them are also public companies, so they're under intense pressure to expand profit margins and tighten costs. If Ralph Lauren can make a shirt for $5 and sell it for $50, and could make the same shirt for $2 and sell it for $50, they will take the latter option. Likewise, if they can make it for $5 and sell it for $100, they'll take that option. And if they can make it for $2 and sell it for $100, even better. They're creating shareholder value by doing so, and doing so at scale. Conversely, startup clothing brands typically begin by addressing a specific niche, and addressing that niche's dissatisfaction with the status quo. A friend of mine runs an extremely successful tie company by following this strategy. You might think: why ties? Who actually wears ties these days, and does anyone actually care about their quality? Well, it turns out that, of the set of all people who do wear ties every day, some of the deepest-pocketed and most frequent purchasers of ties care a great deal about quality. Luxury brands have been pissing these people off by cutting corners on quality and coasting on brand image. So...enter my friend's startup, addressing this small but lucrative customer base. Bingo. (Incidentally, Ralph Lauren himself started off selling neckties).
- wsul 14y ago
  and he started selling them at 2x what others were selling comparable ties at in the same stores. He targeted a niche as well -- his wide ties were far from trendy when he dropped them. You have to admire his ability to market! What is the name of your friend's tie company? We want to spotlight other well-made products as we build our company.
  - jonnathanson 14y ago
    http://vandafineclothing.com http://vandafineclothing.com As you will see on the site: 1) pricing is not cheap, and 2) they get kind of wonky, providing all sorts of construction details on each item. But that's the target demo here: guys who care a lot about quality ties, and who will pay a lot when they see them. Their initial word-of-mouth customer base was a web forum with a particularly upscale, subject-matter-obsessed userbase. (Sort of like launching a new sci-fi series on a Battlestar Galactica forum). (Incidentally, the company is based out of Singapore, and targets a more international base -- especially the emerging Asian luxury consumer. But lest anyone get the wrong idea: Singapore is not a cheap base of operations for manufacturing. Quite the opposite. This is not a make-it-cheap-overseas and sell-it-cheap-in-the-US business model).
salman89 14y ago
I think its more an indictment of today's culture. This is completely anecdotal, but I think its becoming increasingly more fashionable to wear unknown brands, as long as the quality is there. Its a big departure from the Ed Hardy or Affliction brand craze that was going on a few years ago.
- wsul 14y ago
  I definitely agree -- needing a logo on your shirt to make a statement is a statement in itself.
bbalfour 14y ago
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of these brands are riding on their brand equity, not the superior quality of their apparel." I think you are right that some consumers buy because of brand equity. But it certainly isn't 100% of the audience. Bonobos ($40M revenue company) is a perfect example. They broke through the noise and found an audience that wanted to buy based on fit + quality. Not until a couple year into the company did they really start to try to expand their brand equity. I think there is a sizable audience out there willing to buy based on quality + fit and a lower price (I'm in that audience). But of course at some point to continue growing into a massive company you need to start developing that brand equity.
hindsightbias 14y ago
Totally agree. No one buying fitted dress shirts cares if they're $29.99 or $69.99. There is a market that cares, but it isn't affluent geeks reading kickstarter. People in this domain care about fit, look, quality, American made and then maybe price. I can fufill all of the requirements above except American Made in SF with my tailor and an $80-90 shirt isn't going to make me cry. Get the hard stuff done, and then don't worry about the price point so much until you scale. We get it, we'll support you and we'll take the price break later.
- wsul 14y ago
  Very good points. It hasn't been easy, but it HAS been a lot of fun. I hope you'll be along for the ride!
malandrew 14y ago
Why use CA cotton instead of one of the types of cotton known for having extra long stable (ELS) fibers that are softer, more comfortable and resist wrinkling better? Sea Island cotton is excellent. Egyptian, Pima and Swiss are also pretty good. Is your CA cotton the ELS gossypium barbadense, the common gossypium hirsutum or something else?
- wsul 14y ago
  You know a lot about cotton; want to chat? :)
  - malandrew 14y ago
    I am textile technology and apparel mgmt major turned software developer. TBH, most of my textiles knowledge is really rough. It's been almost 8 years since I graduated. I believe when it comes to Sea Island cotton, I don't know how many mills have access to it. AFAIK only two Swiss mills had access to it. Get a shirt made from Sea Island cotton and feel how nice it is. Almost all cottons wrinkle but the the longer the staple fibers the less likely it will wrinkle. Long staple fibers will be smoother and softer because the fibers won't stick out from the shirt and scratch your skin. Longer fibers are also thinner and therefore softer. Lastly, longer fibers break more easily and thus are less susceptible to pilling.

wsul 14y ago

callmeed, you should drop me an email at william [at] fromholden.com, we're always looking for new suppliers, and help understanding deeper into the supply chain! What we think is disruptive is the ability to be a trusted go-to site/brand, while not having to support the overhead of retail stores -- inventory, labor, etc are no joke. If we offer a superior product at a lower price, and you buy from us and enjoy it, we think you'll be back over and over -- that means we can keep margins a bit lower, and earn a good revenue stream from each supporter over a long period of time. It is a different model. We think we can continue to communicate new things you'll enjoy, and that is something traditional retail just can't do well. They largely have to wait for you to return, or spend absurd amounts on television and magazine advertising in hopes you'll come back. I do think it is a disruptive model; but some things remain the same -- quality matters, and your brand represents who you are. Further, we think in this day-in-age, who you are is increasingly important. A lot of old school apparel brands are a fabrication of some fantasy land... we can't and won't do that. Social media is our mouth piece and only authenticity carries.

nvarsj 14y ago

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of these brands are riding on their brand equity, not the superior quality of their apparel. I think you're wrong in terms of disruption. The people who go by brand equity, in my opinion, are the uninformed consumer. This tends to be the 30 year old+ demographic, people who don't know how to exploit the internet. On the other hand, you have 20 year olds and younger that are extremely informed due to familiarity with internet discussions. The rate of information is incredibly fast in this case, and word of mouth can be a powerful thing. And this group is only getting larger and getting more buying power. In fact, there's been a large rise in direct-to-consumer apparel retailers, and by all accounts they are doing very well. Take a look at Everlane for example.

rada 14y ago
People 30+ don't use the internet? http://pewinternet.org/Trend-Data-(Adults)/Whos-Online.aspx http://pewinternet.org/Trend-Data-(Adults)/Whos-Online.aspx 20s and younger group is getting larger? http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p25-1138.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p25-1138.pdf Everlane doing very well? Launched weeks ago. "Extremely informed" indeed.
- tehayj 14y ago
  Plus Everlane still produces in low cost countries...
- akanet 14y ago
  Everlane employee here. We're a year old. Here's an infographic with some of our growth stats: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mctj8bQNXI1qf7nhfo1_1280.jpg http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mctj8bQNXI1qf7nhfo1_1280.j...
- uriah 14y ago
  Everlane has been around for a couple years now.
  - wsul 14y ago
    Everlane has done a great job. We're big fans of a couple of their designs.
  - rada 14y ago
    Looks like they launched a year ago. I went off a blog link that said it was this month, I was wrong. @akanet - looks like you were hellbanned? Not sure if it's because you posted this infographic of your company's growth: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mctj8bQNXI1qf7nhfo1_1280.jpg http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mctj8bQNXI1qf7nhfo1_1280.j... ... which doesn't seem to deserve a ban. FWIW I really like the Everlane website and the products look great. I am sorry you got caught in the crossfire - my comment wasn't intended to single out Everlane but rather to give concrete examples of the parent comment being chock-full of bad information. (Nevertheless, even with your impressive growth, I'd like to point out that at 22 employees and 71,000 t-shirts sold, you have a long way to go before you are not bleeding big. Not exactly the grown-up definition of "doing well" - which was, of course, parent's example, not yours - so you cannot be blamed for it.)

jonnathanson 14y ago

Quality seems to be making a comeback in the US, especially in menswear. We've entered an age where trial is cheaper than ever, and many online sellers offer nearly unconditional return guarantees. The reason large luxury brands compete on image, and not necessarily on quality, is because they can. They've taken years to get there. Many of them are also public companies, so they're under intense pressure to expand profit margins and tighten costs. If Ralph Lauren can make a shirt for $5 and sell it for $50, and could make the same shirt for $2 and sell it for $50, they will take the latter option. Likewise, if they can make it for $5 and sell it for $100, they'll take that option. And if they can make it for $2 and sell it for $100, even better. They're creating shareholder value by doing so, and doing so at scale. Conversely, startup clothing brands typically begin by addressing a specific niche, and addressing that niche's dissatisfaction with the status quo. A friend of mine runs an extremely successful tie company by following this strategy. You might think: why ties? Who actually wears ties these days, and does anyone actually care about their quality? Well, it turns out that, of the set of all people who do wear ties every day, some of the deepest-pocketed and most frequent purchasers of ties care a great deal about quality. Luxury brands have been pissing these people off by cutting corners on quality and coasting on brand image. So...enter my friend's startup, addressing this small but lucrative customer base. Bingo. (Incidentally, Ralph Lauren himself started off selling neckties).

wsul 14y ago
and he started selling them at 2x what others were selling comparable ties at in the same stores. He targeted a niche as well -- his wide ties were far from trendy when he dropped them. You have to admire his ability to market! What is the name of your friend's tie company? We want to spotlight other well-made products as we build our company.
- jonnathanson 14y ago
  http://vandafineclothing.com http://vandafineclothing.com As you will see on the site: 1) pricing is not cheap, and 2) they get kind of wonky, providing all sorts of construction details on each item. But that's the target demo here: guys who care a lot about quality ties, and who will pay a lot when they see them. Their initial word-of-mouth customer base was a web forum with a particularly upscale, subject-matter-obsessed userbase. (Sort of like launching a new sci-fi series on a Battlestar Galactica forum). (Incidentally, the company is based out of Singapore, and targets a more international base -- especially the emerging Asian luxury consumer. But lest anyone get the wrong idea: Singapore is not a cheap base of operations for manufacturing. Quite the opposite. This is not a make-it-cheap-overseas and sell-it-cheap-in-the-US business model).

salman89 14y ago

I think its more an indictment of today's culture. This is completely anecdotal, but I think its becoming increasingly more fashionable to wear unknown brands, as long as the quality is there. Its a big departure from the Ed Hardy or Affliction brand craze that was going on a few years ago.

wsul 14y ago
I definitely agree -- needing a logo on your shirt to make a statement is a statement in itself.

bbalfour 14y ago

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of these brands are riding on their brand equity, not the superior quality of their apparel." I think you are right that some consumers buy because of brand equity. But it certainly isn't 100% of the audience. Bonobos ($40M revenue company) is a perfect example. They broke through the noise and found an audience that wanted to buy based on fit + quality. Not until a couple year into the company did they really start to try to expand their brand equity. I think there is a sizable audience out there willing to buy based on quality + fit and a lower price (I'm in that audience). But of course at some point to continue growing into a massive company you need to start developing that brand equity.

hindsightbias 14y ago

Totally agree. No one buying fitted dress shirts cares if they're $29.99 or $69.99. There is a market that cares, but it isn't affluent geeks reading kickstarter. People in this domain care about fit, look, quality, American made and then maybe price. I can fufill all of the requirements above except American Made in SF with my tailor and an $80-90 shirt isn't going to make me cry. Get the hard stuff done, and then don't worry about the price point so much until you scale. We get it, we'll support you and we'll take the price break later.

wsul 14y ago
Very good points. It hasn't been easy, but it HAS been a lot of fun. I hope you'll be along for the ride!

malandrew 14y ago

Why use CA cotton instead of one of the types of cotton known for having extra long stable (ELS) fibers that are softer, more comfortable and resist wrinkling better? Sea Island cotton is excellent. Egyptian, Pima and Swiss are also pretty good. Is your CA cotton the ELS gossypium barbadense, the common gossypium hirsutum or something else?

wsul 14y ago
You know a lot about cotton; want to chat? :)
- malandrew 14y ago
  I am textile technology and apparel mgmt major turned software developer. TBH, most of my textiles knowledge is really rough. It's been almost 8 years since I graduated. I believe when it comes to Sea Island cotton, I don't know how many mills have access to it. AFAIK only two Swiss mills had access to it. Get a shirt made from Sea Island cotton and feel how nice it is. Almost all cottons wrinkle but the the longer the staple fibers the less likely it will wrinkle. Long staple fibers will be smoother and softer because the fibers won't stick out from the shirt and scratch your skin. Longer fibers are also thinner and therefore softer. Lastly, longer fibers break more easily and thus are less susceptible to pilling.