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> I mean if you agree with it, it’s not propaganda A very workable definition of "propaganda" might be "an idea crafted specifically so that you will think it

> I mean if you agree with it, it’s not propaganda A very workable definition of "propaganda" might be "an idea crafted specifically so that you will think it was your idea in the first place" That's why "agreeing" with propaganda is not the correct verb. You either believe propaganda or you don't. This has nothing to do with reason or logic.

renewiltord 6mo ago
Sure, and this 70% of Americans bullshit is propaganda by that measure. It is frequently trotted out on HN and is met with enthusiastic belief despite being total ass pull. There are US Senators pushing this propaganda and people enthusiastically agreeing.
- leptons 6mo ago
  What percentage of Americans do you think live paycheck to paycheck?
  - renewiltord 6mo ago
    [flagged]
    - ben_w 6mo ago
      The phrase "live paycheck to paycheck" means "To spend all that one earns without saving anything", not the literal interpretation of "failing to die between paychecks" that you seem to be using here. (IIRC, 60-70% is based on surveys, that percentage of people feel they're living like that, but actual stats are much lower, like 25% or so, but it's important to make sure the same thing is being discussed when having conversations like this).
      - renewiltord 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        ben_w 6mo ago
        1. a. Why do you think I'd believe something written by Democratic Party partisans? b. Partisans? https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/slow-boring-bias-and-credibility/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/slow-boring-bias-and-credibil... 2. a. LendingClub: "According to a Reality Check: Paycheck to Paycheck survey conducted by LendingClub and PYMNTS, 60% of employed U.S. adults, including more than four in 10 high-income earners, are living one paycheck to the next with little to no financial cushion.": https://www.lendingclub.com/resource-center/personal-finance/how-to-stop-living-paycheck-to-paycheck https://www.lendingclub.com/resource-center/personal-finance... b. LendingTree: ""Americans Rely on Credit Cards to Make Ends Meet As 64% Admit to Living Paycheck to Paycheck": https://www.lendingtree.com/debt-consolidation/paycheck-to-paycheck-survey/ https://www.lendingtree.com/debt-consolidation/paycheck-to-p... c. PYMNTS: "61%: Share of the U.S. population living paycheck to paycheck as of December 2021 // 54%: Portion of baby boomers and seniors who live paycheck to paycheck": https://www.pymnts.com/study/reality-check-paycheck-to-paycheck-consumer-planning-financial-emergency/ https://www.pymnts.com/study/reality-check-paycheck-to-paych... d. PNC Bank/The PNC Financial Services Group, Inc.: "67% of U.S. workers surveyed say they are living paycheck to paycheck. That’s up from 63% last year." page 6: https://www.pnc.com/content/dam/pnc-com/pdf/corporateandinstitutional/organizational-financial-wellness/organizational-financial-wellness-workplace-report.pdf?msockid=208776d0f21b6d2c295163d5f3826c0b https://www.pnc.com/content/dam/pnc-com/pdf/corporateandinst... e. ADP Research: "Nearly two out of three workers say they’re living paycheck to paycheck.": https://www.adpresearch.com/repetitive-task-workers-financial-strain-and-workforce-dynamics/ https://www.adpresearch.com/repetitive-task-workers-financia... f. All those are neutral. If you want, I could also find slight D-leaning: CNBC / SurveyMonkey: "more than half of Americans (61%) consider themselves to be “living paycheck to paycheck,” up from 58% in March of this year": https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/07/majority-of-americans-feeling-financially-stressed-and-living-paycheck-to-paycheck-according-to-cnbc-your-money-survey.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/07/majority-of-americans-feelin... g. As previously mentioned, 60-70 is a vibes check, asking people how they feel. Those same vibes checks from R-leaning sources do much the same, they just don't report it with the same phrasing. Which is fine so long as everyone's on the same page about what words mean, but even with the stricter phrasing that R reporters prefer for "paycheck to paycheck", it's not even close to the same meaning you were using which comes across as being needlessly literal-minded for the sake of rhetoric rather than situational awareness.
- abustamam 6mo ago
  Uh, what? People don't "agree" with stats. They either believe it at face value, or they fact check the stats and find, oh, this is actually true but the study was limited, or they find that it is indeed just bullshit. No agreement necessary. Politicians taking advantage of the fact that their constituents will not fact check them is propaganda 101.
  - carlosjobim 6mo ago
    Anybody can live paycheck to paycheck if they want to - no matter how much you earn you can spend it all. So the "statistic" or the saying has no relevance for anything.
    - abustamam 6mo ago
      My comment has nothing to do with the actual statistic of living paycheck-to-paycheck. OP could have used a completely different (made up or not) statistic. Of course the statistic will change when you change the definition.

renewiltord 6mo ago

Sure, and this 70% of Americans bullshit is propaganda by that measure. It is frequently trotted out on HN and is met with enthusiastic belief despite being total ass pull. There are US Senators pushing this propaganda and people enthusiastically agreeing.

leptons 6mo ago
What percentage of Americans do you think live paycheck to paycheck?
- renewiltord 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ben_w 6mo ago
    The phrase "live paycheck to paycheck" means "To spend all that one earns without saving anything", not the literal interpretation of "failing to die between paychecks" that you seem to be using here. (IIRC, 60-70% is based on surveys, that percentage of people feel they're living like that, but actual stats are much lower, like 25% or so, but it's important to make sure the same thing is being discussed when having conversations like this).
    - renewiltord 6mo ago
      [flagged]
      - ben_w 6mo ago
        1. a. Why do you think I'd believe something written by Democratic Party partisans? b. Partisans? https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/slow-boring-bias-and-credibility/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/slow-boring-bias-and-credibil... 2. a. LendingClub: "According to a Reality Check: Paycheck to Paycheck survey conducted by LendingClub and PYMNTS, 60% of employed U.S. adults, including more than four in 10 high-income earners, are living one paycheck to the next with little to no financial cushion.": https://www.lendingclub.com/resource-center/personal-finance/how-to-stop-living-paycheck-to-paycheck https://www.lendingclub.com/resource-center/personal-finance... b. LendingTree: ""Americans Rely on Credit Cards to Make Ends Meet As 64% Admit to Living Paycheck to Paycheck": https://www.lendingtree.com/debt-consolidation/paycheck-to-paycheck-survey/ https://www.lendingtree.com/debt-consolidation/paycheck-to-p... c. PYMNTS: "61%: Share of the U.S. population living paycheck to paycheck as of December 2021 // 54%: Portion of baby boomers and seniors who live paycheck to paycheck": https://www.pymnts.com/study/reality-check-paycheck-to-paycheck-consumer-planning-financial-emergency/ https://www.pymnts.com/study/reality-check-paycheck-to-paych... d. PNC Bank/The PNC Financial Services Group, Inc.: "67% of U.S. workers surveyed say they are living paycheck to paycheck. That’s up from 63% last year." page 6: https://www.pnc.com/content/dam/pnc-com/pdf/corporateandinstitutional/organizational-financial-wellness/organizational-financial-wellness-workplace-report.pdf?msockid=208776d0f21b6d2c295163d5f3826c0b https://www.pnc.com/content/dam/pnc-com/pdf/corporateandinst... e. ADP Research: "Nearly two out of three workers say they’re living paycheck to paycheck.": https://www.adpresearch.com/repetitive-task-workers-financial-strain-and-workforce-dynamics/ https://www.adpresearch.com/repetitive-task-workers-financia... f. All those are neutral. If you want, I could also find slight D-leaning: CNBC / SurveyMonkey: "more than half of Americans (61%) consider themselves to be “living paycheck to paycheck,” up from 58% in March of this year": https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/07/majority-of-americans-feeling-financially-stressed-and-living-paycheck-to-paycheck-according-to-cnbc-your-money-survey.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/07/majority-of-americans-feelin... g. As previously mentioned, 60-70 is a vibes check, asking people how they feel. Those same vibes checks from R-leaning sources do much the same, they just don't report it with the same phrasing. Which is fine so long as everyone's on the same page about what words mean, but even with the stricter phrasing that R reporters prefer for "paycheck to paycheck", it's not even close to the same meaning you were using which comes across as being needlessly literal-minded for the sake of rhetoric rather than situational awareness.
abustamam 6mo ago
Uh, what? People don't "agree" with stats. They either believe it at face value, or they fact check the stats and find, oh, this is actually true but the study was limited, or they find that it is indeed just bullshit. No agreement necessary. Politicians taking advantage of the fact that their constituents will not fact check them is propaganda 101.
- carlosjobim 6mo ago
  Anybody can live paycheck to paycheck if they want to - no matter how much you earn you can spend it all. So the "statistic" or the saying has no relevance for anything.
  - abustamam 6mo ago
    My comment has nothing to do with the actual statistic of living paycheck-to-paycheck. OP could have used a completely different (made up or not) statistic. Of course the statistic will change when you change the definition.