5 ms·

I'd be curious to see how ATProto stacks up against ActivityPub in the long run. I was very excited by the prospects of Mastodon, PeerTube, and a few other Fedi

I'd be curious to see how ATProto stacks up against ActivityPub in the long run. I was very excited by the prospects of Mastodon, PeerTube, and a few other Fediverse apps. I even started implementing my own ActivityPub library based on their RFC before I fizzled out. But, the Fediverse never really seemed to take off in the mainstream. Mozilla launched their own mastodon instance around 2023 and then closed it in 2024. I've never heard anything about PeerTube in casual conversation, and Mastodon is not common to hear about either. As someone with a tech degree and a liberal arts degree, I think protocols like this are excellent examples of trying to solve social issues with technology instead of policy or other approaches. I can't tell you what those other approaches would be, but I haven't seen a lot of efficacy from the purely technological ones. Eventually, the pressure of turning a profit always seems to take over, pushing the moral mission aside. Still. I'm rooting for ATProto to speak truth to power and uproot apps like X and Instagram.

troosevelt 6mo ago
I think realistically the only people who care about this are a very niche number of hardcore users. I won't be surprised if federated networks never take off. Obviously there are good reasons for normies to care but when the solution is as disjointed as some of the federated stuff has been, it's just not an advantage. You end up with a bunch of idealists/nerds chatting about the same stuff. It's not terrible but the average person does not care. I mean arguably the average person doesn't really post on social media, either. Sometimes I wonder if future generations will consider this all hot air. Really, they're kind of unncessary to begin with, you probably do want an off-ramp but it's better if a centralized service just has good governance and policies that can be affected by users. The current setup is still usually relatively closed entities that are federated. Regarding the awareness of it in the mainstream, I somehow got too high at a local pot shop and ended up chatting with the cashier. He was a former gamedev and knew what quaternions were (we were both confused by them), but I felt deep shame when I mentioned IRC and he clearly had never heard of it. I don't think outside of HN and other niches, people have heard or care about these federated protocols. It's a very nerdy/self-indulgent need to worry about whether all of your Internet writings are accessible via various means.
pojntfx 6mo ago
Re:fediverse - it depends on which communities you're part of. Digital rights, politics here in Canada (see e.g. https://mstdn.ca/@avilewis https://mstdn.ca/@avilewis), politics in the EU (https://ec.social-network.europa.eu/about https://ec.social-network.europa.eu/about), basically anything that touches Linux is very much entrenched on the protocol. My local newspaper (https://thetyee.ca/ https://thetyee.ca/) has a Mastodon share button on the page even. Unlike with Bluesky, leadership has been very consistent and so far trustworthy.
- skybrian 6mo ago
  Which fediverse leaders do you mean?
esbranson 6mo ago
The Fediverse did take off. Then large numbers of influential people got banned by randos and realized how much better and reliable (non-profit or not) corporate censors are.
- egypturnash 6mo ago
  ...for them.
- BugsJustFindMe 6mo ago
  Banned for what?
  - 3689023 6mo ago
    For selecting the wrong instance when you created your account. "Defederated", effectively the same thing.
- officeplant 6mo ago
  >Then large numbers of influential people got banned by randos Given the state of other social media. The randos were right to ban them probably.
- gzread 6mo ago
  How can you be banned from the fediverse?
  - thombles 6mo ago
    I understand your pedantic point but let me give a realistic reply. If your account, or the account of somebody you like corresponding with, happens to be on an instance that falls into disfavour (not uncommon in my time there) then server bans come out and conversations become broken, even between parties who had no knowledge of the overarching drama. Good luck even understanding it if you aren’t a techie.
  - rmoriz 6mo ago
    Every server admin can ban your account. You can’t move a banned account. You lose everything. I was banned from mastodon.social because I dare to criticize the socialist regime of the former GDR on Germany‘s Independence Day.
neelc 6mo ago
I could be wrong, but I hold the opinion that ATProto is the CDMA (3GPP2) of social media protocols, while ActivityPub is GSM (3GPP). CDMA had better radio tech than GSM, but at the expense of openness. Qualcomm basically owned CDMA, and still does, while GSM was cross-licensed among everyone. Likewise, ActivityPub is truly open while ATProto is "open" but you're basically a prisoner to Bluesky Social, the way CDMA put you in Qualcomm's prison. Bluesky has the initial lead, but it's Twitter's estranged child. People used to Twitter find Bluesky an easier replacement. CDMA was also an easier upgrade from analog 1G networks than GSM was, due to re-using the back office systems and ESN identifiers. Yes, Bluesky has a better experience. But maybe future ActivityPub releases will catch up for a large part. UMTS caught up to CDMA while being more open, and LTE became the universal 4G standard, with GSM-centric IMEI and SIM cards and such. And maybe PDS implementations will converge to ActivityPub with an ATProto fallback. Keep in mind that I know nothing about the protocols, so I could be missing what makes ATProto a better tech, or not.
- skybrian 6mo ago
  There are alternate implementations of the whole Bluesky stack, though they don't have many users yet.
gzread 6mo ago
FYI the activitypub RFC won't actually help you. What you have to do is copy how Mastodon actually communicates with other copies of itself. If you base your work on the RFC, it won't actually communicate with Mastodon or with all the other software that pretends to be Mastodon.
- 8organicbits 6mo ago
  What incompatibilities do you know about?
  - gzread 6mo ago
    Actually implementing JSON-LD, or just copying the fixed format JSON that also happens to be valid JSON-LD. If you actually implement JSON-LD, it won't work even though the RFC says you should do that.
    - 8organicbits 6mo ago
      Thanks, looks interesting. I think that's being tracked here: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/22720 https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/22720
zimpenfish 6mo ago
> Mozilla launched their own mastodon instance around 2023 and then closed it in 2024. To be fair, given Mozilla's recent record, I'd take that as a positive sign of the Fediverse's potential. (Nope, not forgiven them for fucking up and closing Pocket. Never will.)

troosevelt 6mo ago

I think realistically the only people who care about this are a very niche number of hardcore users. I won't be surprised if federated networks never take off. Obviously there are good reasons for normies to care but when the solution is as disjointed as some of the federated stuff has been, it's just not an advantage. You end up with a bunch of idealists/nerds chatting about the same stuff. It's not terrible but the average person does not care. I mean arguably the average person doesn't really post on social media, either. Sometimes I wonder if future generations will consider this all hot air. Really, they're kind of unncessary to begin with, you probably do want an off-ramp but it's better if a centralized service just has good governance and policies that can be affected by users. The current setup is still usually relatively closed entities that are federated. Regarding the awareness of it in the mainstream, I somehow got too high at a local pot shop and ended up chatting with the cashier. He was a former gamedev and knew what quaternions were (we were both confused by them), but I felt deep shame when I mentioned IRC and he clearly had never heard of it. I don't think outside of HN and other niches, people have heard or care about these federated protocols. It's a very nerdy/self-indulgent need to worry about whether all of your Internet writings are accessible via various means.

pojntfx 6mo ago

Re:fediverse - it depends on which communities you're part of. Digital rights, politics here in Canada (see e.g. https://mstdn.ca/@avilewis https://mstdn.ca/@avilewis), politics in the EU (https://ec.social-network.europa.eu/about https://ec.social-network.europa.eu/about), basically anything that touches Linux is very much entrenched on the protocol. My local newspaper (https://thetyee.ca/ https://thetyee.ca/) has a Mastodon share button on the page even. Unlike with Bluesky, leadership has been very consistent and so far trustworthy.

skybrian 6mo ago
Which fediverse leaders do you mean?

esbranson 6mo ago

The Fediverse did take off. Then large numbers of influential people got banned by randos and realized how much better and reliable (non-profit or not) corporate censors are.

egypturnash 6mo ago
...for them.
BugsJustFindMe 6mo ago
Banned for what?
- 3689023 6mo ago
  For selecting the wrong instance when you created your account. "Defederated", effectively the same thing.
officeplant 6mo ago
>Then large numbers of influential people got banned by randos Given the state of other social media. The randos were right to ban them probably.
gzread 6mo ago
How can you be banned from the fediverse?
- thombles 6mo ago
  I understand your pedantic point but let me give a realistic reply. If your account, or the account of somebody you like corresponding with, happens to be on an instance that falls into disfavour (not uncommon in my time there) then server bans come out and conversations become broken, even between parties who had no knowledge of the overarching drama. Good luck even understanding it if you aren’t a techie.
- rmoriz 6mo ago
  Every server admin can ban your account. You can’t move a banned account. You lose everything. I was banned from mastodon.social because I dare to criticize the socialist regime of the former GDR on Germany‘s Independence Day.

neelc 6mo ago

I could be wrong, but I hold the opinion that ATProto is the CDMA (3GPP2) of social media protocols, while ActivityPub is GSM (3GPP). CDMA had better radio tech than GSM, but at the expense of openness. Qualcomm basically owned CDMA, and still does, while GSM was cross-licensed among everyone. Likewise, ActivityPub is truly open while ATProto is "open" but you're basically a prisoner to Bluesky Social, the way CDMA put you in Qualcomm's prison. Bluesky has the initial lead, but it's Twitter's estranged child. People used to Twitter find Bluesky an easier replacement. CDMA was also an easier upgrade from analog 1G networks than GSM was, due to re-using the back office systems and ESN identifiers. Yes, Bluesky has a better experience. But maybe future ActivityPub releases will catch up for a large part. UMTS caught up to CDMA while being more open, and LTE became the universal 4G standard, with GSM-centric IMEI and SIM cards and such. And maybe PDS implementations will converge to ActivityPub with an ATProto fallback. Keep in mind that I know nothing about the protocols, so I could be missing what makes ATProto a better tech, or not.

skybrian 6mo ago
There are alternate implementations of the whole Bluesky stack, though they don't have many users yet.

gzread 6mo ago

FYI the activitypub RFC won't actually help you. What you have to do is copy how Mastodon actually communicates with other copies of itself. If you base your work on the RFC, it won't actually communicate with Mastodon or with all the other software that pretends to be Mastodon.

8organicbits 6mo ago
What incompatibilities do you know about?
- gzread 6mo ago
  Actually implementing JSON-LD, or just copying the fixed format JSON that also happens to be valid JSON-LD. If you actually implement JSON-LD, it won't work even though the RFC says you should do that.
  - 8organicbits 6mo ago
    Thanks, looks interesting. I think that's being tracked here: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/22720 https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/22720

zimpenfish 6mo ago

> Mozilla launched their own mastodon instance around 2023 and then closed it in 2024. To be fair, given Mozilla's recent record, I'd take that as a positive sign of the Fediverse's potential. (Nope, not forgiven them for fucking up and closing Pocket. Never will.)