3 ms·

Huh? Of all the wonky shit about my Mac, the flawless keyboard navigation is really none of that

by 9dev 6mo ago

devmor 6mo ago
“Flawless” is absolutely the opposite of how I’d describe the third class keyboard navigation in MacOS. It’s actually more intuitive to use a magic keyboard on the iPad than on the desktop OS.
- sitharus 6mo ago
  What do you find missing from macOS keyboard navigation? I've been using macs since the 90s so I'm quite used to it, so I'd love to know what I've been missing out on.
  - devmor 6mo ago
    I have a lot of complaints but I would say my three big gripes are: - Window navigation within (rather than between) open programs. Mainly if one is on an external monitor, this is just a nightmare and I end up using expose and clicking the window instead. - Window positioning (I installed 3rd party software called Rectangle for this last year so it’s kind of solved but if we’re talking about the vanilla experience this is a big one) - Having to switch focus to the dock and navigate one by one through shortcuts to open them instead of the Super+Dock position shortcuts that Windows and KDE expose
    - nandomrumber 6mo ago
      > Window navigation within open programs Isn’t table cmd + ~
    - allthetime 6mo ago
      Window navigation is just ctrl+direction
      - devmor 6mo ago
        That does not work between monitors.
    - sitharus 6mo ago
      Interesting, those are problems I don't have, I guess due to my work and workflow. Command-` works for window switching as I expect, probably simply due to being used to it so I know exactly how It works. Window positioning is an interesting one. I can't stand windows being positioned through tools, I stack them like you would with papers and shuffle through so the edge overlap is really important. Probably showing my age there! And I never use the dock. Spotlight gets me everything I'd need from there.
    - samtheprogram 6mo ago
      They kinda added window positioning with Tahoe -- there are things I like more about it than Rectangle (resizing), but I found that it was janky enough I switched back to Rectangle. I rarely use the Dock, it's somewhat eye candy I leave up, or add stacks for folders that I use, but typically for keyboard action I reach for spotlight (cmd+space). Now, spotlight occasionally shitting the bed, that's another issue...
  - a96 6mo ago
    The absolute first thing that's needed: Maximize window.
    - 72deluxe 6mo ago
      Annoyingly it doesn't even maximize properly. You have to use alt-click for sensible behaviour. They also decided about 10? years ago to make it behave as a "fullscreen" button which was really useless to me on a Mac Pro with 2 screens, where it would only ever "zoom" to one screen and then make the other screen display the desktop wallpaper - not the actual desktop - the wallpaper. Useless.
    - Zarel 6mo ago
      Ctrl+Fn+F?
- platevoltage 6mo ago
  At least we have trackpads that are worth a crap.
  - devmor 6mo ago
    I do adore the macOS trackpads, they blow anything else I’ve used out of the water. The keyboard (physically) is also just very pleasant to type on.
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    - platevoltage 6mo ago
      There is no comparison. I even use their trackpad in my desktop setup. The keyboards are fine. I prefer a mechanical keyboard, but this is a laptop of course. I do want to strangle someone over at Apple for deciding to NOT put the control key in the bottom left corner though. Luckily it's not a hard fix.
dwedge 6mo ago
I'm surprised you feel that way. I fight with my mac every day for one reason or another. At least it's not as bad as the days where some software used Cmd + letter and some used ctrl +letter, but for instance Cmd tab will switch to the wrong window when I go back and I have to use the mouse. Window switching in general is a lot harder if you only have the keyboard because the laptop is docked without a magic trackpad
- codesnik 6mo ago
  strange. Some keyboard shortcuts in os x are kinda weird and not intuitive to linux or windows users, but they are there. It's totally possible to use mac without trackpad. even cmd+tab switcher has a lot of hidden (but googlable) things: while still holding cmd after initial cmd+tab, you can close apps with q, switch to other apps with tab and (cmd+)shift+tab or left/right arrows, show app windows with down, etc. There's also a cmd+` for switching between one app's windows. I still find that distinction weird from usability perspective, but it's not too hard to adapt to it.
  - bmelton 6mo ago
    > totally possible to use mac without trackpad As I discover every time I have a mouse fail, it is exceptionally difficult to use a modern Mac without a pointer device because at some point, it became quite difficult to get from (eg) the settings nav panel to the settings panel. I can CMD+SPACE to open spotlight, type 'Settings' to get to a settings panel, type 'Bluetooth' to open the bluetooth settings, and where I feel like I _should_ be able to `Tab` or `Enter` into the devices list, or have SOME way to navigate over there, the only way I've found to be able to is to plug in a physical mouse Moreover, I occasionally encounter modals that won't let me tab to their action buttons, requiring a pointer device click to dismiss
    - codesnik 6mo ago
      huh. I just did what you describe above (on tahoma) and was able to tab into the list of bluetooth devices, no problem. do you have "Settings > Keyboard > Keyboard navigation" on? I thought it is on by default, but apparently it isn't. Without it "tab" only jumps between text fields and checkboxes. There's also an "Accessibility > Keyboard > Full keyboard access", which gives more controls.
paxys 6mo ago
Specific applications sure, but the base OS interface is unusable without a trackpad.
- Jeremy1026 6mo ago
  Cmd+Space to open spotlight, type in the first 3 or 4 letters of whatever you're trying to do (an application to open, or a system setting to change) and then Return gets me about where I need to go most of the time. Cmd+Tab and Cmd+` for window selection. I don't do much else on the OS itself so my bases are covered.
- 72deluxe 6mo ago
  This is true for the most part, unless you adjust keyboard settings in System Settings to let all UI elements be focusable with the keyboard (for tabbing between UI elements). I think it used to be under "keyboard" but they might have moved it in the recent Control Center reshuffle.
__MatrixMan__ 6mo ago
Really? I find that on MacOS apps are very inconsistent about whether popping open a menu shows me hints for selecting items in that menu. Those same apps are consistent about it on Linux. And then there's the bonkers window manager which can't move focus directionally (e.g. Super + left) and so you have to fall back to Cmd + tab tab tab tab but even then there's no consistency about whether you're switching between app instances or windows instances within the same app...
- JSR_FDED 6mo ago
  Cmd+Shift+Tab goes in the opposite direction.
  - __MatrixMan__ 6mo ago
    Yes but what goes left, right, up, or down?
- cosmic_cheese 6mo ago
  Display of shortcuts in menus is the responsibility of the app developer (especially in the case of use of foreign UI toolkits). If you don’t see them it’s because its dev dropped the ball and the Mac version is an afterthought.
  - __MatrixMan__ 6mo ago
    I think its more about priorities. I expect touch related features to be a bit rough on Linux and I expect the same for keyboard focused things on Mac.
    - cosmic_cheese 6mo ago
      Skipping keyboard shortcut indicators in menus feels a bit like leaving the back seat out of a four-door sedan, but maybe that’s just me.
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
72deluxe 6mo ago
I had been using Windows my entire life and using a Mac in 2009? was awful. How do I get to the menu bar? Ctrl-F2. They keep changing the behaviour of the menu so that cursor keys don't wrap at the bottom of a menu so you have to know which direction you want to go to get to a menu item - make your choice! Up or down! How do I get to the dock so that I can open the Applications menu? Ctrl-F3. left left left left left up. Then the popup menu doesn't respond to any letters. All of this contrasted with Windows which had Alt + key for the menu. I learned it from Windows 3.11 for incredible speed: - Alt space - show the window menu - Alt space x - maximize - Alt space n - minimize - Alt space r - restore - Windows key - start menu - Windows key > P > right cursor > N - notepad (the right cursor = accessories) This was broken in later start menus. The modern start menu is absolutely useless and takes forever. Up until XP this worked fine. - (with Quicklaunch): Windows + N (number) - launch that item. Eg. Windows + 3 will launch the third item across. No idea if they broke this in Windows 11. Under Windows 98 all of these were lightning fast. Explorer behaved as you'd expect too. None of this was possible on the Mac and using it was very very very slow with a mouse to wave around the screen.
- 9dev 6mo ago
  I mean, all of this is available in MacOS as well, and configurable even—your main complaint seems to be that it works differently from Windows? MacOS is a different operating system with different paradigms; instead of a start menu, you'd use Spotlight search for the same effect, which can be invoked with CMD+Space.
  - 72deluxe 6mo ago
    No, the main complaint is that you can't do half of those things with a keyboard. Eg. how do I maximise a window on macos with my keyboard? I have been using macos for decades and use it daily at work so I understand it is different. I am just saying that the out-of-the-box functionality for keyboard usability is very poor compared to Windows (and Linux DEs which imitate Windows). I end up using Rectangle on macos for moving windows and maximising them using keyboard shortcuts because else it's infuriating for window management to have to move from the keyboard to the mouse all the time. The usability under Tahoe for window edges etc. is even worse with a mouse than previous versions and a complete joke, so I am stuck on Sequoia.

Huh? Of all the wonky shit about my Mac, the flawless keyboard navigation is really none of that

by 9dev 6mo ago

Huh? Of all the wonky shit about my Mac, the flawless keyboard navigation is really none of that

“Flawless” is absolutely the opposite of how I’d describe the third class keyboard navigation in MacOS. It’s actually more intuitive to use a magic keyboard on the iPad than on the desktop OS.

sitharus 6mo ago
What do you find missing from macOS keyboard navigation? I've been using macs since the 90s so I'm quite used to it, so I'd love to know what I've been missing out on.
- devmor 6mo ago
  I have a lot of complaints but I would say my three big gripes are: - Window navigation within (rather than between) open programs. Mainly if one is on an external monitor, this is just a nightmare and I end up using expose and clicking the window instead. - Window positioning (I installed 3rd party software called Rectangle for this last year so it’s kind of solved but if we’re talking about the vanilla experience this is a big one) - Having to switch focus to the dock and navigate one by one through shortcuts to open them instead of the Super+Dock position shortcuts that Windows and KDE expose
  - nandomrumber 6mo ago
    > Window navigation within open programs Isn’t table cmd + ~
  - allthetime 6mo ago
    Window navigation is just ctrl+direction
    - devmor 6mo ago
      That does not work between monitors.
  - sitharus 6mo ago
    Interesting, those are problems I don't have, I guess due to my work and workflow. Command-` works for window switching as I expect, probably simply due to being used to it so I know exactly how It works. Window positioning is an interesting one. I can't stand windows being positioned through tools, I stack them like you would with papers and shuffle through so the edge overlap is really important. Probably showing my age there! And I never use the dock. Spotlight gets me everything I'd need from there.
  - samtheprogram 6mo ago
    They kinda added window positioning with Tahoe -- there are things I like more about it than Rectangle (resizing), but I found that it was janky enough I switched back to Rectangle. I rarely use the Dock, it's somewhat eye candy I leave up, or add stacks for folders that I use, but typically for keyboard action I reach for spotlight (cmd+space). Now, spotlight occasionally shitting the bed, that's another issue...
- a96 6mo ago
  The absolute first thing that's needed: Maximize window.
  - 72deluxe 6mo ago
    Annoyingly it doesn't even maximize properly. You have to use alt-click for sensible behaviour. They also decided about 10? years ago to make it behave as a "fullscreen" button which was really useless to me on a Mac Pro with 2 screens, where it would only ever "zoom" to one screen and then make the other screen display the desktop wallpaper - not the actual desktop - the wallpaper. Useless.
  - Zarel 6mo ago
    Ctrl+Fn+F?
platevoltage 6mo ago
At least we have trackpads that are worth a crap.
- devmor 6mo ago
  I do adore the macOS trackpads, they blow anything else I’ve used out of the water. The keyboard (physically) is also just very pleasant to type on.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - platevoltage 6mo ago
    There is no comparison. I even use their trackpad in my desktop setup. The keyboards are fine. I prefer a mechanical keyboard, but this is a laptop of course. I do want to strangle someone over at Apple for deciding to NOT put the control key in the bottom left corner though. Luckily it's not a hard fix.

dwedge 6mo ago

I'm surprised you feel that way. I fight with my mac every day for one reason or another. At least it's not as bad as the days where some software used Cmd + letter and some used ctrl +letter, but for instance Cmd tab will switch to the wrong window when I go back and I have to use the mouse. Window switching in general is a lot harder if you only have the keyboard because the laptop is docked without a magic trackpad

codesnik 6mo ago
strange. Some keyboard shortcuts in os x are kinda weird and not intuitive to linux or windows users, but they are there. It's totally possible to use mac without trackpad. even cmd+tab switcher has a lot of hidden (but googlable) things: while still holding cmd after initial cmd+tab, you can close apps with q, switch to other apps with tab and (cmd+)shift+tab or left/right arrows, show app windows with down, etc. There's also a cmd+` for switching between one app's windows. I still find that distinction weird from usability perspective, but it's not too hard to adapt to it.
- bmelton 6mo ago
  > totally possible to use mac without trackpad As I discover every time I have a mouse fail, it is exceptionally difficult to use a modern Mac without a pointer device because at some point, it became quite difficult to get from (eg) the settings nav panel to the settings panel. I can CMD+SPACE to open spotlight, type 'Settings' to get to a settings panel, type 'Bluetooth' to open the bluetooth settings, and where I feel like I _should_ be able to `Tab` or `Enter` into the devices list, or have SOME way to navigate over there, the only way I've found to be able to is to plug in a physical mouse Moreover, I occasionally encounter modals that won't let me tab to their action buttons, requiring a pointer device click to dismiss
  - codesnik 6mo ago
    huh. I just did what you describe above (on tahoma) and was able to tab into the list of bluetooth devices, no problem. do you have "Settings > Keyboard > Keyboard navigation" on? I thought it is on by default, but apparently it isn't. Without it "tab" only jumps between text fields and checkboxes. There's also an "Accessibility > Keyboard > Full keyboard access", which gives more controls.

paxys 6mo ago

Specific applications sure, but the base OS interface is unusable without a trackpad.

Jeremy1026 6mo ago
Cmd+Space to open spotlight, type in the first 3 or 4 letters of whatever you're trying to do (an application to open, or a system setting to change) and then Return gets me about where I need to go most of the time. Cmd+Tab and Cmd+` for window selection. I don't do much else on the OS itself so my bases are covered.
72deluxe 6mo ago
This is true for the most part, unless you adjust keyboard settings in System Settings to let all UI elements be focusable with the keyboard (for tabbing between UI elements). I think it used to be under "keyboard" but they might have moved it in the recent Control Center reshuffle.

__MatrixMan__ 6mo ago

Really? I find that on MacOS apps are very inconsistent about whether popping open a menu shows me hints for selecting items in that menu. Those same apps are consistent about it on Linux. And then there's the bonkers window manager which can't move focus directionally (e.g. Super + left) and so you have to fall back to Cmd + tab tab tab tab but even then there's no consistency about whether you're switching between app instances or windows instances within the same app...

JSR_FDED 6mo ago
Cmd+Shift+Tab goes in the opposite direction.
- __MatrixMan__ 6mo ago
  Yes but what goes left, right, up, or down?
cosmic_cheese 6mo ago
Display of shortcuts in menus is the responsibility of the app developer (especially in the case of use of foreign UI toolkits). If you don’t see them it’s because its dev dropped the ball and the Mac version is an afterthought.
- __MatrixMan__ 6mo ago
  I think its more about priorities. I expect touch related features to be a bit rough on Linux and I expect the same for keyboard focused things on Mac.
  - cosmic_cheese 6mo ago
    Skipping keyboard shortcut indicators in menus feels a bit like leaving the back seat out of a four-door sedan, but maybe that’s just me.

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

72deluxe 6mo ago

I had been using Windows my entire life and using a Mac in 2009? was awful. How do I get to the menu bar? Ctrl-F2. They keep changing the behaviour of the menu so that cursor keys don't wrap at the bottom of a menu so you have to know which direction you want to go to get to a menu item - make your choice! Up or down! How do I get to the dock so that I can open the Applications menu? Ctrl-F3. left left left left left up. Then the popup menu doesn't respond to any letters. All of this contrasted with Windows which had Alt + key for the menu. I learned it from Windows 3.11 for incredible speed: - Alt space - show the window menu - Alt space x - maximize - Alt space n - minimize - Alt space r - restore - Windows key - start menu - Windows key > P > right cursor > N - notepad (the right cursor = accessories) This was broken in later start menus. The modern start menu is absolutely useless and takes forever. Up until XP this worked fine. - (with Quicklaunch): Windows + N (number) - launch that item. Eg. Windows + 3 will launch the third item across. No idea if they broke this in Windows 11. Under Windows 98 all of these were lightning fast. Explorer behaved as you'd expect too. None of this was possible on the Mac and using it was very very very slow with a mouse to wave around the screen.

9dev 6mo ago
I mean, all of this is available in MacOS as well, and configurable even—your main complaint seems to be that it works differently from Windows? MacOS is a different operating system with different paradigms; instead of a start menu, you'd use Spotlight search for the same effect, which can be invoked with CMD+Space.
- 72deluxe 6mo ago
  No, the main complaint is that you can't do half of those things with a keyboard. Eg. how do I maximise a window on macos with my keyboard? I have been using macos for decades and use it daily at work so I understand it is different. I am just saying that the out-of-the-box functionality for keyboard usability is very poor compared to Windows (and Linux DEs which imitate Windows). I end up using Rectangle on macos for moving windows and maximising them using keyboard shortcuts because else it's infuriating for window management to have to move from the keyboard to the mouse all the time. The usability under Tahoe for window edges etc. is even worse with a mouse than previous versions and a complete joke, so I am stuck on Sequoia.