7 ms·

I would actually suggest this is symptomatic of the real problem: money in politics. Elected officials (and some appointed, like SCOTUS) keep changing laws an

by RajT88 7mo ago

I would actually suggest this is symptomatic of the real problem: money in politics. Elected officials (and some appointed, like SCOTUS) keep changing laws and precedents to allow more and more money in politics. They can't quit all that dark money - without a lot of funding, you don't get elected. Usually the best funded candidate wins. There was an anonymous oped from a congressman some years back which bemoaned the reality - that 60% of their time was dedicated to meeting with donors for reelection campaigns instead of working on real problems.

alsetmusic 7mo ago
When one party will violate every norm and law to the greatest extent that they can get away with it, it's pretty much impossible to compete with them. I want good things for people. I can't compete with fascists because they will cheat and lie and employ violence. My positive intent is almost impossible to out thwart their dirty deeds if they are willing to break laws / change laws and I won't.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway85825 7mo ago
  There's only one party and it's color is green. Donors know red or blue doesn't matter, so they give to both.
  - gcanyon 7mo ago
    That's just an unreal characterization that plays into the hands of the "red" team. One side has put up presidents and congressional leadership that worked (mostly, I'm not saying they're perfect) within the traditional framework of the system. The other has put up a president who literally does not understand the meaning of the word "no," expects that everyone will let him do pretty much anything he wants, and a congress that agrees with him. Notably, that side was different in 2000, 1988, 1980, etc. -- not perfect by any stretch, but not this. The difference matters.
  - hypeatei 7mo ago
    Do you want another authoritarian, corrupt, cult of personality leader like Trump? Proclaiming "both sides" and ignoring nuance like you're doing is how no one gets held accountable for the real harms that are taking place. Please stop holding water for the MAGAs/GOP.
    - throwaway85825 7mo ago
      America has had even more corrupt/authoritarian/cult of personality leaders than Trump. They were younger and their brains still worked so they did way more damage than trump too. Most Americans just don't learn much history so can't compare.
      - hypeatei 7mo ago
        > America has had even more corrupt/authoritarian/cult of personality leaders than Trump. Like who?
        guzfip 7mo ago
        Andrew Jackson to this day is a darling among conservatives in America.
- southerntofu 7mo ago
  Assuming you're from the USA, your two main parties are exactly like that. The appearances have changed, but Obama drone-assassinating random children on the other side of the world was not much better than what Trump is doing. Not defending Trump, to be clear, just saying US imperialism and fascism has much deeper roots and that removing Trump is not going to fix any issues the rest of the world has with the USA.
  - actionfromafar 7mo ago
    It was not better, it was less. US imperialism has deep roots, yes, but a large chunk of the world who would tolerate a moderate level of it, don't tolerate this level.
    - nandomrumber 7mo ago
      I don’t see any not tolerating it in practice. A lot of invective, but nothing in practice that really indicates not tolerating.
      - actionfromafar 7mo ago
        I hear rumblings about foreign companies disconnecting from American services and products. You don't turn large ships on a dime, but they are turning.
    - southerntofu 7mo ago
      I don't think it was less, though only future historians will come up with actual numbers. It was less public, though. Most of the world never tolerated it. Even when western governments tolerated it, the population did not; see also the huge worldwide demonstrations against the Iraq war. I think the difference in perception is because the european oligarchy is now being effectively treated as was previously the rest of the world, so they're now taking a stance because they feel threatened, whereas they previously saw themselves as aligned with the US government no matter what.
  - gcanyon 7mo ago
- raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
  It amazes me that so many people blame the politicians and not the people who elected them.
  - frantathefranta 7mo ago
    Blaming voters for being stupid is not widely accepted yet.
    - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
      The voters aren’t stupid. They are actively malignant and cheer what the administration is doing.
      - mrguyorama 7mo ago
        Okay but what solution lies down that road? That's the problem. People don't want to blame the voters because there's no solution. We are grasping for something that is possible to fix that isn't just "Somehow americans are especially bad at doing very basic things for no reason"
        raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
        Well, I personally am making the “Ben Kenobi” choice. I’m hoping to leave the US and retire and die and make it the next generation’s problem. I’ve done my part, I have voted for “progressive”/safety net policies and the US has gone in the opposite direction. This isn’t some shrill unthought out plan. I’m actually in the country now I plan to retire to for six weeks and I’m coming back for a month in the summer, part of the ex-pat community and meeting people, my wife and I have been learning Spanish and I speak it okay and I know the processes for establishing residency here I’m over dealing with the American people. As a minority, I find the entire attitude outside of the US refreshing even as the only Black couple in our expat group. For reference, my still living parents grew up in the segregated South.
        1718627440 7mo ago
sehansen 7mo ago
Part of the reason money has such a big influence on elections is that first-past-the-post election system you have over there in the US. When voters have to make a binary choice between two participants, low-information campaigns like hit-pieces are able to make a big difference and are cheap to communicate en-masse. When voters have a actual choice between four parties on the left and four parties on the right, hit-pieces will only make a voter switch from, say, one left-wing party to another. So since the return-on-investment on political advertising is much lower, much less money will be spent on it and there will be less of it. And what will be there will be of higher quality.
- nandomrumber 7mo ago
  If any of what you just said was true in practice, Australia would be a gleaming example of how democracies with strong civil society organisations can be run. Instead, Australia is best described as pigs at the slops trough. A nation that seems to only want to vote for leaders who have a public humiliation kink.
MisterTea 7mo ago
> that 60% of their time was dedicated to meeting with donors for reelection campaigns instead of working on real problems. This is the same story told by Tom Morello, guitarist of Rage Against the Machine (at the end of the early life section): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Morello#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Morello#Early_life Key line: "He had to compromise his entire being every day."
sandworm101 7mo ago
Yes yes yes. Dark money. Nepotism. Corrupt courts. Gerrymandering .... anything to deflect from the fact that so many voters still put thier mark beside the biggest idiot. And i mean that literally. American voters like tall people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heights_of_presidents_and_presidential_candidates_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heights_of_presidents_and_pres...
- ToucanLoucan 7mo ago
  They're all problems and they all contribute to the reality of our government being unable to actually do anything beyond tax cuts. * People elect morons because we have been slowly destroying our education system since the 50's and we can barely turn out anyone who can think worth a shit. That's by design, as local elections overwhelmingly swing Republican, and Republicans on balance gain from an ignorant electorate. * Additionally, we are now bombarded with "information" from wake to sleep every single day, and beyond the actual problems which are already stressful enough, we also have a whole bunch of made up culture war nonsense that mainstream and alternative media loves to discuss, both to fill airtime and because researching and covering nonsense is far less work, less legally actionable, and garners more attention overall. Information overload affects people too and makes them more likely to choose easy/quick things. * Dark money is also a HUGE issue because it permits capital to influence elections like never before. It's no coincidence all of this shit got turbocharged after Citizens United. * Gerrymandering is also a huge, huge issue wherein Democrat votes are simply disregarded or packed into single districts, which helps local elections shift further right constantly. * The courts are also hideously corrupt. The Supreme Court is utterly failing to reign in the Trump administration on everything short of wiping their asses with the constitution, and that's not shocking considering how many of them were appointed by Trump and confirmed by the inept Congress. And then any time Democrats do manage to acquire something resembling power, they have so many fires to put out that they can barely get us back to an even keel before another "outsider" dumbass comes in and starts screwing it up again.
  - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
    People aren’t electing “morons” out of ignorance. They are electing people that hate the same people they hate. You are blaming ignorance where it is active malice.

by RajT88 7mo ago

alsetmusic 7mo ago

When one party will violate every norm and law to the greatest extent that they can get away with it, it's pretty much impossible to compete with them. I want good things for people. I can't compete with fascists because they will cheat and lie and employ violence. My positive intent is almost impossible to out thwart their dirty deeds if they are willing to break laws / change laws and I won't.

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
throwaway85825 7mo ago
There's only one party and it's color is green. Donors know red or blue doesn't matter, so they give to both.
- gcanyon 7mo ago
  That's just an unreal characterization that plays into the hands of the "red" team. One side has put up presidents and congressional leadership that worked (mostly, I'm not saying they're perfect) within the traditional framework of the system. The other has put up a president who literally does not understand the meaning of the word "no," expects that everyone will let him do pretty much anything he wants, and a congress that agrees with him. Notably, that side was different in 2000, 1988, 1980, etc. -- not perfect by any stretch, but not this. The difference matters.
- hypeatei 7mo ago
  Do you want another authoritarian, corrupt, cult of personality leader like Trump? Proclaiming "both sides" and ignoring nuance like you're doing is how no one gets held accountable for the real harms that are taking place. Please stop holding water for the MAGAs/GOP.
  - throwaway85825 7mo ago
    America has had even more corrupt/authoritarian/cult of personality leaders than Trump. They were younger and their brains still worked so they did way more damage than trump too. Most Americans just don't learn much history so can't compare.
    - hypeatei 7mo ago
      > America has had even more corrupt/authoritarian/cult of personality leaders than Trump. Like who?
      - guzfip 7mo ago
        Andrew Jackson to this day is a darling among conservatives in America.
southerntofu 7mo ago
Assuming you're from the USA, your two main parties are exactly like that. The appearances have changed, but Obama drone-assassinating random children on the other side of the world was not much better than what Trump is doing. Not defending Trump, to be clear, just saying US imperialism and fascism has much deeper roots and that removing Trump is not going to fix any issues the rest of the world has with the USA.
- actionfromafar 7mo ago
  It was not better, it was less. US imperialism has deep roots, yes, but a large chunk of the world who would tolerate a moderate level of it, don't tolerate this level.
  - nandomrumber 7mo ago
    I don’t see any not tolerating it in practice. A lot of invective, but nothing in practice that really indicates not tolerating.
    - actionfromafar 7mo ago
      I hear rumblings about foreign companies disconnecting from American services and products. You don't turn large ships on a dime, but they are turning.
  - southerntofu 7mo ago
    I don't think it was less, though only future historians will come up with actual numbers. It was less public, though. Most of the world never tolerated it. Even when western governments tolerated it, the population did not; see also the huge worldwide demonstrations against the Iraq war. I think the difference in perception is because the european oligarchy is now being effectively treated as was previously the rest of the world, so they're now taking a stance because they feel threatened, whereas they previously saw themselves as aligned with the US government no matter what.
- gcanyon 7mo ago
raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
It amazes me that so many people blame the politicians and not the people who elected them.
- frantathefranta 7mo ago
  Blaming voters for being stupid is not widely accepted yet.
  - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
    The voters aren’t stupid. They are actively malignant and cheer what the administration is doing.
    - mrguyorama 7mo ago
      Okay but what solution lies down that road? That's the problem. People don't want to blame the voters because there's no solution. We are grasping for something that is possible to fix that isn't just "Somehow americans are especially bad at doing very basic things for no reason"
      - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
        Well, I personally am making the “Ben Kenobi” choice. I’m hoping to leave the US and retire and die and make it the next generation’s problem. I’ve done my part, I have voted for “progressive”/safety net policies and the US has gone in the opposite direction. This isn’t some shrill unthought out plan. I’m actually in the country now I plan to retire to for six weeks and I’m coming back for a month in the summer, part of the ex-pat community and meeting people, my wife and I have been learning Spanish and I speak it okay and I know the processes for establishing residency here I’m over dealing with the American people. As a minority, I find the entire attitude outside of the US refreshing even as the only Black couple in our expat group. For reference, my still living parents grew up in the segregated South.
      - 1718627440 7mo ago

sehansen 7mo ago

Part of the reason money has such a big influence on elections is that first-past-the-post election system you have over there in the US. When voters have to make a binary choice between two participants, low-information campaigns like hit-pieces are able to make a big difference and are cheap to communicate en-masse. When voters have a actual choice between four parties on the left and four parties on the right, hit-pieces will only make a voter switch from, say, one left-wing party to another. So since the return-on-investment on political advertising is much lower, much less money will be spent on it and there will be less of it. And what will be there will be of higher quality.

nandomrumber 7mo ago
If any of what you just said was true in practice, Australia would be a gleaming example of how democracies with strong civil society organisations can be run. Instead, Australia is best described as pigs at the slops trough. A nation that seems to only want to vote for leaders who have a public humiliation kink.

MisterTea 7mo ago

> that 60% of their time was dedicated to meeting with donors for reelection campaigns instead of working on real problems. This is the same story told by Tom Morello, guitarist of Rage Against the Machine (at the end of the early life section): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Morello#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Morello#Early_life Key line: "He had to compromise his entire being every day."

sandworm101 7mo ago

Yes yes yes. Dark money. Nepotism. Corrupt courts. Gerrymandering .... anything to deflect from the fact that so many voters still put thier mark beside the biggest idiot. And i mean that literally. American voters like tall people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heights_of_presidents_and_presidential_candidates_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heights_of_presidents_and_pres...

ToucanLoucan 7mo ago
They're all problems and they all contribute to the reality of our government being unable to actually do anything beyond tax cuts. * People elect morons because we have been slowly destroying our education system since the 50's and we can barely turn out anyone who can think worth a shit. That's by design, as local elections overwhelmingly swing Republican, and Republicans on balance gain from an ignorant electorate. * Additionally, we are now bombarded with "information" from wake to sleep every single day, and beyond the actual problems which are already stressful enough, we also have a whole bunch of made up culture war nonsense that mainstream and alternative media loves to discuss, both to fill airtime and because researching and covering nonsense is far less work, less legally actionable, and garners more attention overall. Information overload affects people too and makes them more likely to choose easy/quick things. * Dark money is also a HUGE issue because it permits capital to influence elections like never before. It's no coincidence all of this shit got turbocharged after Citizens United. * Gerrymandering is also a huge, huge issue wherein Democrat votes are simply disregarded or packed into single districts, which helps local elections shift further right constantly. * The courts are also hideously corrupt. The Supreme Court is utterly failing to reign in the Trump administration on everything short of wiping their asses with the constitution, and that's not shocking considering how many of them were appointed by Trump and confirmed by the inept Congress. And then any time Democrats do manage to acquire something resembling power, they have so many fires to put out that they can barely get us back to an even keel before another "outsider" dumbass comes in and starts screwing it up again.
- raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
  People aren’t electing “morons” out of ignorance. They are electing people that hate the same people they hate. You are blaming ignorance where it is active malice.