3 ms·

This is very very cool :) And is _way_ better than when I'm forced to do this by hand, I'll say that much haha

by girvo 7mo ago

Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
There are e-waste companies with inert hot-air centrifuges. Essentially, they extract the RoHS solder, clean it, and resell re-certified product back to manufacturers. The chips simply drop off into a bin, and no ethical company will sell customers used silicon. There were a few folks that ended up getting a few years in prison for that con (small China groups would sand and laser mark old chips with modern lot codes), and hence why many US recycling plants shred the chips for recovery of precious metals. It is a serious safety problem, and having personally been stung by locally sold counterfeit/used stuff with BS compliance documentation... it sometimes means months of lost project time figuring out what happened. Always direct sample from the manufacturers whenever possible. =3
- femto 7mo ago
  I can't see a problem, as long as the chips are not fraudulently resold. Beyond not using a resource in the first place, reuse is the gold standard in sustainability. As an engineer, I wouldn't use second hand components for prototyping. When prototyping you need to eliminate as much uncertainty as possible. I'd consider using second hand components in production, provided there is a cost advantage, supply is reliable and my production line includes a test that would pick up faulty components. Even then, I'd be monitoring failure rates and reverting to new components if elevated failure rates caused costs. There's an argument that (well handled) second hand components might even have a lower failure rate than new as they have been burned in. I'm guessing this company is targeting specialsied repair rather than production. Sometimes complex parts are no longer manufactured and the only option is second hand (often at a premium price).
  - Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
    >I can't see a problem, as long as the chips are not fraudulently resold. In general, most components are only rated for 2 to 4 re-flow heating cycles before internal damage occurs. On some components the initial re-flow cycle brings the component into the rated tolerance, and for others the PCB forms a bimorph cantilever that physically fatigues the chip contacts/leads. Production yields are only part of the Infant Mortality Phase of the bathtub curve. Some components do get more stable with age if and only if left alone, but you can count those on one hand if you still have all your fingers. That is also a 3 hour pedantic conversation no one wants to have. I am secretly a sentient turnip... =3
    - phyzome 7mo ago
      ...OK, I'll bite, what's the "sentient turnip" bit about?
      - Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
        Biting is considered bad manners... and don't worry about it. =3
      - natpalmer1776 7mo ago
        As a member of the genetic tree, I’ll go out on a limb and suggest Autism. It seems a lot like Autism.
        Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
        Not really, and most autistic people I've met are very focused individuals. Met one guy whose whole world was the Unreal engine source, and unless you were talking about that specific area... could care less who you were. Be kind to yourself first, and maybe get outside for a walk. Best regards =3
        skholinn 7mo ago
        thats guy sounds very interesting, Unreal engine is fun
  - skholinn 7mo ago
    the way we see it is that with robotics and coding agents we can offer much comprehensive and traceable tests. anyone can send any hardware they have, we help understand what is reusable, how to verify it and ship the parts back. curious—what specific failure modes or uncertainties would you want eliminated before you'd consider using recovered parts, even just in production?
- skholinn 7mo ago
  exactly!! we aim to have comprehensive and transparent protocols of testing after the extraction which is exactly what is hard without general purpose robotics. if you have any pointers on how to make that happed or any pain points from your experience please send me a note to sava@dayworkx.com !
- HeyLaughingBoy 7mo ago
  > no ethical company will sell customers used silicon Since when? My first EE job was in 1988 and back then "pulls" -- components pulled from circuit boards were an easy way to get cheap parts. We'd get mailers every week from various companies listing what they had available. The electronics recycling industry was/is huge.
  - Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
    > Since when? The moment people switched from socket based chips, and BGA over 1 square inch in size. Let me fix that for you: "The electronics [3rd world counterfeiting] industry was/is huge." You should already know the unmentioned reasons by now. I am a sentient turnip... thus, my obligation to respond ends with the safety warning. =3
    - HeyLaughingBoy 7mo ago
      Good point that I hadn't thought of. I figured that the reason I hadn't seen any pulls in recent memory was because I didn't work in the segment of industry that was so cost-sensitive any more. While we only used DIPs at that time, most of the pulls that I remember weren't removed from sockets: they had clearly been desoldered.
      - Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
        Surplus driven hobby projects are very different from commercial/industrial products. There are also valid reasons aerospace companies often change chip pin plating. https://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/background/index.htm https://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/background/index.htm Workmanship is important to some folks... =3
        HeyLaughingBoy 7mo ago
        Oh, this wasn't for hobby projects; I just worked for a cheapskate :-)
skholinn 7mo ago
thanks! how often do you have to do it by hand and how long does it take it?
- Ccecil 7mo ago
  I am not the poster...but I can say for things like the A4982 stepper drivers it would take me about 1-2min/chip to do it by hand with hot air with a preheater. [1] In one particular case where we had a BOM mixup on a batch of 500 boards @5 chips per board this would have saved me a ton of time. I did 2500 chip swaps by hand... If you need any help with the project let me know. This is something I would love to help develop hardware for. [1] https://youtu.be/rZCczA-PX5w?si=_BPojbLMsTLjsDCw https://youtu.be/rZCczA-PX5w?si=_BPojbLMsTLjsDCw
- girvo 7mo ago
  Rarely! But it takes me a few minutes per component, sometimes more because I'm quite bad at electronics and always afraid of damaging things haha

This is very very cool :) And is _way_ better than when I'm forced to do this by hand, I'll say that much haha

by girvo 7mo ago

This is very very cool :) And is _way_ better than when I'm forced to do this by hand, I'll say that much haha

There are e-waste companies with inert hot-air centrifuges. Essentially, they extract the RoHS solder, clean it, and resell re-certified product back to manufacturers. The chips simply drop off into a bin, and no ethical company will sell customers used silicon. There were a few folks that ended up getting a few years in prison for that con (small China groups would sand and laser mark old chips with modern lot codes), and hence why many US recycling plants shred the chips for recovery of precious metals. It is a serious safety problem, and having personally been stung by locally sold counterfeit/used stuff with BS compliance documentation... it sometimes means months of lost project time figuring out what happened. Always direct sample from the manufacturers whenever possible. =3

femto 7mo ago
I can't see a problem, as long as the chips are not fraudulently resold. Beyond not using a resource in the first place, reuse is the gold standard in sustainability. As an engineer, I wouldn't use second hand components for prototyping. When prototyping you need to eliminate as much uncertainty as possible. I'd consider using second hand components in production, provided there is a cost advantage, supply is reliable and my production line includes a test that would pick up faulty components. Even then, I'd be monitoring failure rates and reverting to new components if elevated failure rates caused costs. There's an argument that (well handled) second hand components might even have a lower failure rate than new as they have been burned in. I'm guessing this company is targeting specialsied repair rather than production. Sometimes complex parts are no longer manufactured and the only option is second hand (often at a premium price).
- Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
  >I can't see a problem, as long as the chips are not fraudulently resold. In general, most components are only rated for 2 to 4 re-flow heating cycles before internal damage occurs. On some components the initial re-flow cycle brings the component into the rated tolerance, and for others the PCB forms a bimorph cantilever that physically fatigues the chip contacts/leads. Production yields are only part of the Infant Mortality Phase of the bathtub curve. Some components do get more stable with age if and only if left alone, but you can count those on one hand if you still have all your fingers. That is also a 3 hour pedantic conversation no one wants to have. I am secretly a sentient turnip... =3
  - phyzome 7mo ago
    ...OK, I'll bite, what's the "sentient turnip" bit about?
    - Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
      Biting is considered bad manners... and don't worry about it. =3
    - natpalmer1776 7mo ago
      As a member of the genetic tree, I’ll go out on a limb and suggest Autism. It seems a lot like Autism.
      - Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
        Not really, and most autistic people I've met are very focused individuals. Met one guy whose whole world was the Unreal engine source, and unless you were talking about that specific area... could care less who you were. Be kind to yourself first, and maybe get outside for a walk. Best regards =3
        skholinn 7mo ago
        thats guy sounds very interesting, Unreal engine is fun
- skholinn 7mo ago
  the way we see it is that with robotics and coding agents we can offer much comprehensive and traceable tests. anyone can send any hardware they have, we help understand what is reusable, how to verify it and ship the parts back. curious—what specific failure modes or uncertainties would you want eliminated before you'd consider using recovered parts, even just in production?
skholinn 7mo ago
exactly!! we aim to have comprehensive and transparent protocols of testing after the extraction which is exactly what is hard without general purpose robotics. if you have any pointers on how to make that happed or any pain points from your experience please send me a note to sava@dayworkx.com !
HeyLaughingBoy 7mo ago
> no ethical company will sell customers used silicon Since when? My first EE job was in 1988 and back then "pulls" -- components pulled from circuit boards were an easy way to get cheap parts. We'd get mailers every week from various companies listing what they had available. The electronics recycling industry was/is huge.
- Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
  > Since when? The moment people switched from socket based chips, and BGA over 1 square inch in size. Let me fix that for you: "The electronics [3rd world counterfeiting] industry was/is huge." You should already know the unmentioned reasons by now. I am a sentient turnip... thus, my obligation to respond ends with the safety warning. =3
  - HeyLaughingBoy 7mo ago
    Good point that I hadn't thought of. I figured that the reason I hadn't seen any pulls in recent memory was because I didn't work in the segment of industry that was so cost-sensitive any more. While we only used DIPs at that time, most of the pulls that I remember weren't removed from sockets: they had clearly been desoldered.
    - Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
      Surplus driven hobby projects are very different from commercial/industrial products. There are also valid reasons aerospace companies often change chip pin plating. https://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/background/index.htm https://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/background/index.htm Workmanship is important to some folks... =3
      - HeyLaughingBoy 7mo ago
        Oh, this wasn't for hobby projects; I just worked for a cheapskate :-)

skholinn 7mo ago

thanks! how often do you have to do it by hand and how long does it take it?

Ccecil 7mo ago
I am not the poster...but I can say for things like the A4982 stepper drivers it would take me about 1-2min/chip to do it by hand with hot air with a preheater. [1] In one particular case where we had a BOM mixup on a batch of 500 boards @5 chips per board this would have saved me a ton of time. I did 2500 chip swaps by hand... If you need any help with the project let me know. This is something I would love to help develop hardware for. [1] https://youtu.be/rZCczA-PX5w?si=_BPojbLMsTLjsDCw https://youtu.be/rZCczA-PX5w?si=_BPojbLMsTLjsDCw
girvo 7mo ago
Rarely! But it takes me a few minutes per component, sometimes more because I'm quite bad at electronics and always afraid of damaging things haha