5 ms·

Male genital mutilation is very common

telesilla 6mo ago
Respectfully, this article is not about the male experience, it's okay to talk about women without putting men in the story.
- zahlman 6mo ago
  No, it's important context, and attempting to suppress it does everyone a disservice. Without taking these kinds of points of comparison into consideration, one becomes susceptible to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy , and may become convinced about supposed bias where the evidence doesn't support the claim, contradicts it or even shows the opposite. Another classic example is the discourse around "missing and murdered Indigenous women" in Canadian politics. It was popular enough around a decade ago to be more or less a set phrase. To listen to politicians and wonks discussing the matter, you would imagine that Indigenous men didn't ever get kidnapped or murdered. As a matter of fact, the statistics showed that it happened to them at over twice the rate of the women. (They also showed that it was not an alarmingly high rate compared to other Canadian populations, and that the perpetrators were usually themselves Indigenous — as you'd expect for generally fairly isolated communities.) But you would get silenced in many places (e.g., banned from the Canada subreddit) for pointing to those statistics.
  - rdevilla 6mo ago
    > But you would get silenced in many places (e.g., banned from the Canada subreddit) for pointing to those statistics. Canada has an incredibly censorious culture. I have been downvoted to -4 [0] [1] and flagged for merely suggesting that Canadians do not care about medical privacy (or privacy in general) in light of things like Bill C-22 and DNA collection at the US border [2]. Interestingly enough, questioning gender ideology and being trans critical (maybe even transphobic) is now acceptable on HN [3], but Canadians have something very dark to hide when it comes to respecting medical privacy given how hard posts of this nature are downvoted, flagged, and censored. Surprised he didn't willingly relinquish a sample. Privacy is not actually a core Canadian value. Neither in spirit nor in letter do Canadians actually demonstrate that they give a shit about privacy; see for instance Bill C-22. I invite commenters to demonstrate otherwise instead of merely downvoting incontrovertible facts. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47571182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47571182 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47571396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47571396 [2] https://www.ctvnews.ca/london/article/canadian-man-denied-entry-forced-to-submit-dna-sample-at-us-border/ https://www.ctvnews.ca/london/article/canadian-man-denied-en... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47538165 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47538165
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- eastbound 6mo ago
  Respectfully, if we didn’t shutter men all the time, maybe there would be paradoxically more time for women. Unless we make it a zero-sum game where we’re all extremists who would lose if it makes the opponent lose too. Mixed school is a bane for men, for example. I’m full on with the Mollahs on this one.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6mo ago
    > Respectfully, if we didn’t shutter men all the time, Respectfully, what are you talking about?
    - zahlman 6mo ago
      Presumably, GP is referring to the crystal-clear attempt to do exactly that, in GGP.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 6mo ago
        Yes, yes, you're right, I see that on HN all the time.
- bondarchuk 6mo ago
  To someone who is shocked at the prevalence of female genital mutilation in other cultures, the widespread acceptance of other types of genital mutilation in (probably) their own culture is an important piece of context, I'd say.
  - JesseMReeves 6mo ago
    [flagged]
    - denkmoon 6mo ago
      Whether removing the tip of your finger or the whole arm, the imposition on bodily autonomy is equal. It is a violation of your personal sovereignty at the deepest level.
      - reverius42 6mo ago
        What about fingernails? Would cutting a fingernail without consent be equal?
        denkmoon 6mo ago
        Absolutely. Let's switch away from fingernails to hair because that's something I can talk about with person experience. I have long hair, plenty of people have jokingly threatened to cut it in my sleep or such. To have my hair cut like that would impart no physical injury or ailment to me at all, but it would be such a severe violation of my bodily autonomy that I would have no reservation about considering it assault and bringing charges as such. I think your point is that fingernails are just a bit of extraneous keratin that is universally removed as part of grooming and so the violation cannot be equal to having your entire arm removed, but perhaps you forget the many women and some men out there who like to decorate their fingernails and that this is an expression of self.
        reverius42 6mo ago
- az226 6mo ago
  This is a bad take. If society takes genital mutilation of children seriously, and it gets outlawed in more and more countries, it helps save ALL children from genital mutilation. Only a shortsighted person would see it as a zero sum.
  - malfist 6mo ago
    Is it? Did "all lives matter" help prevent police brutality? Or was it an attempt at whataboutism so you don't have to do anything?
    - benj111 6mo ago
      There wasn't really an all lives matter on the same sense as the black lives matter movement. Plus there's 'all lives matter' as in the proponent doesn't want to do anything, and 'all lives matter' as in police brutality is bad no matter who it's aimed at, and should be stopped completely. The latter more closely mirrors the parents example. Further I would say your example is flawed. BLM assumed a level of racism that I don't think there is. This isn't a case of KKK members wanting to get the <racist slur>s out of the country and back where 'they belong' it's more an issue of laziness and profiling. That isn't to say it isn't racism, but just talking about racism allows police that aren't KKK members to tell themselves they aren't the problem. Focussing on the issues of laziness etc means they do actually need to face up to the issues. The same thing with genital mutilation, this isn't simply a case of something that happens to girls in a far away land, this is happening to kids right now in the west. Focusing on FGM kind of misses the point.
      - malfist 6mo ago
        > BLM assumed a level of racism that I don't think there is Why is your lived experience greater than that of an entire group of people?
        benj111 6mo ago
        I have my own experience. And my experience is that they don't give a toss about me as a white male. Should I infer that they are sexist also? Or is it a case of them treating me like shit is related to them treating ethnic minorities like shit? And if that's the case there's a unifying factor more nuanced than just 'racism'
- benj111 6mo ago
  On some levels yes, but if the male experience isn't being talked about, then no. If we were to talk about domestic violence the automatic assumption is male against female. Ignoring the fact that a third of victims are men. That isn't exactly a small minority, before you take into account that it probably an undercount as no one talks about men getting abused. The same goes for breast cancer. Men can get it, its almost never talked about.
- drfloyd51 6mo ago
  I hear what you are saying. But hear me out. I think their comment is ok. No one is forced to follow that thread. And the comment does provide additional information. In fact, I never considered circumcision a form a gender mutilation. Despite being circumcised. But that comment got me thinking about it in a new way. And thinking about GM in a larger context.
az226 6mo ago
And it is an order of magnitude more common for boys than for girls. And it’s legal to genitally mutilate boys in every single country on the planet.
SoftTalker 6mo ago
presumably you are referring to circumcision, which has recognized benefits.
- Anamon 6mo ago
  Very weakly supported benefits, to be weighed against quite severe risks and frequent issues.
- zahlman 6mo ago
  Circumcision is not one thing worldwide. > Circumcision is prevalent among 92% of men in North Africa and around 62% in Sub-Saharan Africa. In western and northern parts of Africa it is mainly performed for religious reasons, whereas in southern parts of Africa it rarely performed in neonates, instead being a rite of passage into manhood.[22] > Studies evaluating the complications due to traditional male circumcision have found rates varying from 35% (Kenya) to 48% (South Africa). Infection, delayed wound healing, glans amputation and injury, bleeding, loss of penile sensitivity, excessive removal of foreskin, and death are the major complications reported.[23] ... > ...There are tribes, however, that do not accept this modernized practice. They insist on circumcision in a group ceremony, and a test of courage at the banks of a river. This more traditional approach is common amongst the Meru and the Kisii tribes of Kenya.[40] One boy in Meru County, Kenya was assaulted by other boys because they wanted him to be circumcised in a traditional ceremony as opposed to in a hospital.[44] ... > Amongst the Maasai people of Kenya and Tanzania, male circumcision has historically been the graduation element of an educational program which taught tribal beliefs, practices, culture, religion and history to youth who were on the verge of becoming full-fledged members of society. The circumcision ceremony was very public, and required a display of courage under the knife in order to maintain the honor and prestige of the young man and his family. The only form of anesthesia was a bath in the cold morning waters of a river, which tended to numb the senses to a minor degree. The youths being circumcised were required to maintain a stoic expression and not to flinch from the pain.[40] ... > In some South African ethnic groups, circumcision has roots in several belief systems, and is performed most of the time on teenage boys: "The young men in the eastern Cape belong to the Xhosa ethnic group for whom circumcision is considered part of the passage into manhood. ... A law was recently introduced requiring initiation schools to be licensed and only allowing circumcisions to be performed on youths aged 18 and older. But Eastern Cape provincial Health Department spokesman Sizwe Kupelo told Reuters news agency that boys as young as 11 had died. Each year thousands of young men go into the bush alone, without water, to attend initiation schools. Many do not survive the ordeal.[59]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_in_Africa (includes NSFW images). [22]: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5422680 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5422680 [23]: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3474774 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3474774 [40]: https://web.archive.org/web/20080906115430/http://htc.anu.edu.au/pdfs/Marck1.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20080906115430/http://htc.anu.ed... [44]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7dBMLHNxhg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7dBMLHNxhg [59]: https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3069491.stm https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3069491.stm
Markoff 6mo ago
*in the US Not in Europe.
xtajv 6mo ago
(Nonconsensual) genital mutilation is bad no matter who you are or what parts you have. Also: If pain becomes a contest, we're all losers. Also: Thank you for complaining. There is much to complain about. There's so much to complain about that we can sit in a circle and take turns complaining and everybody will probably learn something.
- xtajv 6mo ago
  Spot to complain about male genital mutilation:
  - xtajv 6mo ago
    My understanding is that (nonconsensual) circumcision of infants is quite common in some regions of the planet, and that some impacted individuals wish that this decision had not been made for them without their consent. That seems bad.
- xtajv 6mo ago
  Spot to complain about female genital mutilation:
- xtajv 6mo ago
  Spot to complain about intersex genital mutilation:
  - tempaccountabgd 6mo ago
    [dead]
- xtajv 6mo ago
  Spot to complain that I missed a spot: (P.S. you can also add a new thread)

Respectfully, this article is not about the male experience, it's okay to talk about women without putting men in the story.

zahlman 6mo ago
No, it's important context, and attempting to suppress it does everyone a disservice. Without taking these kinds of points of comparison into consideration, one becomes susceptible to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy , and may become convinced about supposed bias where the evidence doesn't support the claim, contradicts it or even shows the opposite. Another classic example is the discourse around "missing and murdered Indigenous women" in Canadian politics. It was popular enough around a decade ago to be more or less a set phrase. To listen to politicians and wonks discussing the matter, you would imagine that Indigenous men didn't ever get kidnapped or murdered. As a matter of fact, the statistics showed that it happened to them at over twice the rate of the women. (They also showed that it was not an alarmingly high rate compared to other Canadian populations, and that the perpetrators were usually themselves Indigenous — as you'd expect for generally fairly isolated communities.) But you would get silenced in many places (e.g., banned from the Canada subreddit) for pointing to those statistics.
- rdevilla 6mo ago
  > But you would get silenced in many places (e.g., banned from the Canada subreddit) for pointing to those statistics. Canada has an incredibly censorious culture. I have been downvoted to -4 [0] [1] and flagged for merely suggesting that Canadians do not care about medical privacy (or privacy in general) in light of things like Bill C-22 and DNA collection at the US border [2]. Interestingly enough, questioning gender ideology and being trans critical (maybe even transphobic) is now acceptable on HN [3], but Canadians have something very dark to hide when it comes to respecting medical privacy given how hard posts of this nature are downvoted, flagged, and censored. Surprised he didn't willingly relinquish a sample. Privacy is not actually a core Canadian value. Neither in spirit nor in letter do Canadians actually demonstrate that they give a shit about privacy; see for instance Bill C-22. I invite commenters to demonstrate otherwise instead of merely downvoting incontrovertible facts. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47571182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47571182 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47571396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47571396 [2] https://www.ctvnews.ca/london/article/canadian-man-denied-entry-forced-to-submit-dna-sample-at-us-border/ https://www.ctvnews.ca/london/article/canadian-man-denied-en... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47538165 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47538165
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
eastbound 6mo ago
Respectfully, if we didn’t shutter men all the time, maybe there would be paradoxically more time for women. Unless we make it a zero-sum game where we’re all extremists who would lose if it makes the opponent lose too. Mixed school is a bane for men, for example. I’m full on with the Mollahs on this one.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6mo ago
  > Respectfully, if we didn’t shutter men all the time, Respectfully, what are you talking about?
  - zahlman 6mo ago
    Presumably, GP is referring to the crystal-clear attempt to do exactly that, in GGP.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6mo ago
      Yes, yes, you're right, I see that on HN all the time.
bondarchuk 6mo ago
To someone who is shocked at the prevalence of female genital mutilation in other cultures, the widespread acceptance of other types of genital mutilation in (probably) their own culture is an important piece of context, I'd say.
- JesseMReeves 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - denkmoon 6mo ago
    Whether removing the tip of your finger or the whole arm, the imposition on bodily autonomy is equal. It is a violation of your personal sovereignty at the deepest level.
    - reverius42 6mo ago
      What about fingernails? Would cutting a fingernail without consent be equal?
      - denkmoon 6mo ago
        Absolutely. Let's switch away from fingernails to hair because that's something I can talk about with person experience. I have long hair, plenty of people have jokingly threatened to cut it in my sleep or such. To have my hair cut like that would impart no physical injury or ailment to me at all, but it would be such a severe violation of my bodily autonomy that I would have no reservation about considering it assault and bringing charges as such. I think your point is that fingernails are just a bit of extraneous keratin that is universally removed as part of grooming and so the violation cannot be equal to having your entire arm removed, but perhaps you forget the many women and some men out there who like to decorate their fingernails and that this is an expression of self.
        reverius42 6mo ago
az226 6mo ago
This is a bad take. If society takes genital mutilation of children seriously, and it gets outlawed in more and more countries, it helps save ALL children from genital mutilation. Only a shortsighted person would see it as a zero sum.
- malfist 6mo ago
  Is it? Did "all lives matter" help prevent police brutality? Or was it an attempt at whataboutism so you don't have to do anything?
  - benj111 6mo ago
    There wasn't really an all lives matter on the same sense as the black lives matter movement. Plus there's 'all lives matter' as in the proponent doesn't want to do anything, and 'all lives matter' as in police brutality is bad no matter who it's aimed at, and should be stopped completely. The latter more closely mirrors the parents example. Further I would say your example is flawed. BLM assumed a level of racism that I don't think there is. This isn't a case of KKK members wanting to get the <racist slur>s out of the country and back where 'they belong' it's more an issue of laziness and profiling. That isn't to say it isn't racism, but just talking about racism allows police that aren't KKK members to tell themselves they aren't the problem. Focussing on the issues of laziness etc means they do actually need to face up to the issues. The same thing with genital mutilation, this isn't simply a case of something that happens to girls in a far away land, this is happening to kids right now in the west. Focusing on FGM kind of misses the point.
    - malfist 6mo ago
      > BLM assumed a level of racism that I don't think there is Why is your lived experience greater than that of an entire group of people?
      - benj111 6mo ago
        I have my own experience. And my experience is that they don't give a toss about me as a white male. Should I infer that they are sexist also? Or is it a case of them treating me like shit is related to them treating ethnic minorities like shit? And if that's the case there's a unifying factor more nuanced than just 'racism'
benj111 6mo ago
On some levels yes, but if the male experience isn't being talked about, then no. If we were to talk about domestic violence the automatic assumption is male against female. Ignoring the fact that a third of victims are men. That isn't exactly a small minority, before you take into account that it probably an undercount as no one talks about men getting abused. The same goes for breast cancer. Men can get it, its almost never talked about.
drfloyd51 6mo ago
I hear what you are saying. But hear me out. I think their comment is ok. No one is forced to follow that thread. And the comment does provide additional information. In fact, I never considered circumcision a form a gender mutilation. Despite being circumcised. But that comment got me thinking about it in a new way. And thinking about GM in a larger context.

az226 6mo ago

And it is an order of magnitude more common for boys than for girls. And it’s legal to genitally mutilate boys in every single country on the planet.

SoftTalker 6mo ago

presumably you are referring to circumcision, which has recognized benefits.

Anamon 6mo ago
Very weakly supported benefits, to be weighed against quite severe risks and frequent issues.
zahlman 6mo ago
Circumcision is not one thing worldwide. > Circumcision is prevalent among 92% of men in North Africa and around 62% in Sub-Saharan Africa. In western and northern parts of Africa it is mainly performed for religious reasons, whereas in southern parts of Africa it rarely performed in neonates, instead being a rite of passage into manhood.[22] > Studies evaluating the complications due to traditional male circumcision have found rates varying from 35% (Kenya) to 48% (South Africa). Infection, delayed wound healing, glans amputation and injury, bleeding, loss of penile sensitivity, excessive removal of foreskin, and death are the major complications reported.[23] ... > ...There are tribes, however, that do not accept this modernized practice. They insist on circumcision in a group ceremony, and a test of courage at the banks of a river. This more traditional approach is common amongst the Meru and the Kisii tribes of Kenya.[40] One boy in Meru County, Kenya was assaulted by other boys because they wanted him to be circumcised in a traditional ceremony as opposed to in a hospital.[44] ... > Amongst the Maasai people of Kenya and Tanzania, male circumcision has historically been the graduation element of an educational program which taught tribal beliefs, practices, culture, religion and history to youth who were on the verge of becoming full-fledged members of society. The circumcision ceremony was very public, and required a display of courage under the knife in order to maintain the honor and prestige of the young man and his family. The only form of anesthesia was a bath in the cold morning waters of a river, which tended to numb the senses to a minor degree. The youths being circumcised were required to maintain a stoic expression and not to flinch from the pain.[40] ... > In some South African ethnic groups, circumcision has roots in several belief systems, and is performed most of the time on teenage boys: "The young men in the eastern Cape belong to the Xhosa ethnic group for whom circumcision is considered part of the passage into manhood. ... A law was recently introduced requiring initiation schools to be licensed and only allowing circumcisions to be performed on youths aged 18 and older. But Eastern Cape provincial Health Department spokesman Sizwe Kupelo told Reuters news agency that boys as young as 11 had died. Each year thousands of young men go into the bush alone, without water, to attend initiation schools. Many do not survive the ordeal.[59]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_in_Africa (includes NSFW images). [22]: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5422680 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5422680 [23]: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3474774 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3474774 [40]: https://web.archive.org/web/20080906115430/http://htc.anu.edu.au/pdfs/Marck1.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20080906115430/http://htc.anu.ed... [44]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7dBMLHNxhg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7dBMLHNxhg [59]: https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3069491.stm https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3069491.stm

Markoff 6mo ago

*in the US Not in Europe.

xtajv 6mo ago

(Nonconsensual) genital mutilation is bad no matter who you are or what parts you have. Also: If pain becomes a contest, we're all losers. Also: Thank you for complaining. There is much to complain about. There's so much to complain about that we can sit in a circle and take turns complaining and everybody will probably learn something.

xtajv 6mo ago
Spot to complain about male genital mutilation:
- xtajv 6mo ago
  My understanding is that (nonconsensual) circumcision of infants is quite common in some regions of the planet, and that some impacted individuals wish that this decision had not been made for them without their consent. That seems bad.
xtajv 6mo ago
Spot to complain about female genital mutilation:
xtajv 6mo ago
Spot to complain about intersex genital mutilation:
- tempaccountabgd 6mo ago
  [dead]
xtajv 6mo ago
Spot to complain that I missed a spot: (P.S. you can also add a new thread)