7 ms·

If someone hands out cookies in the supermarket, are you allowed to grab everything and leave?

GaggiX 7mo ago
I will copy the supermarket and paste it somewhere else. I'm also going to download a car.
falcor84 7mo ago
That really depends, but the quick answer is that according to our human social contract, we'd just ask "how many can I take?". Until now, the only real tool to limit scrapers has been throttling, but I don't see any reason for there not to be a similar conversational social contract between machines.
- volemo 7mo ago
  Isn’t robots.txt such a “social contract between machines”? But AI scrapers couldn’t care less.
drfloyd51 7mo ago
Odd thing about cookies… they disappear after one serving. Websites are an endless stream of cookies. The analogy doesn’t hold.
- z3c0 7mo ago
  Digital information may be our first post-scarce resource. It's interesting, and sad, to see so many attempt to fit it within scarcity-based economic models.
  - Terretta 7mo ago
    > digital information may be our first post-scarce resource … browses memory and storage prices on NewEgg … Hmm. But the word digital is distracting us. The word information is the important one. The question isn't where information goes. It's where information comes from. Is new information post scarcity? Can it ever be?
- throwaway613746 7mo ago
  [dead]
- ghywertelling 7mo ago
  If copying content from harddrive to another is theft, then so is DNA copying itself. Everything is a Remix culture. We should promote remix culture rather than hamper it. Everything is a Remix (Original Series) https://youtu.be/nJPERZDfyWc https://youtu.be/nJPERZDfyWc
- GeoAtreides 7mo ago
  how about this analogy: I created a most tasty cookie recipe. I give it out for free, and all copies have my name because I am vain person who likes to be known far and wide as the best baking chef ever. Is it ok to get the recipe, remove my name, and write in LLM-Codex as the creator? again, i'm ok with giving the recipe for free, i just want my name out there.
  - gruez 7mo ago
    >Is it ok to get the recipe, remove my name, and write in LLM-Codex as the creator? again, i'm ok with giving the recipe for free, i just want my name out there. From a legal perspective, it's a pretty clear "no". The instructions in recipes aren't copyrightable. The moral question is more ambiguous, but it's still pretty weak. Most recipes are uncredited, and it's unclear why someone can force everyone to attribute the recipe to them when all they realistically did was tweak the dish a bit. In the example above, I doubt you invented cookies.
    - GeoAtreides 7mo ago
      i'm curious, do you honestly think the argument was about recipes and cookies? maybe it was an analogy? looking back up the comment tree, it does seem to be an analogy, not a discussion about ACTUAL cookies and ACTUAL recipes.
      - gruez 7mo ago
        >maybe it was an analogy? In that case it's a terrible analogy because if you can't get people to agree on the cookies case, what hope do you have to extend it to the case you're trying to apply the analogy to? It's like saying "You wouldn't pirate a movie, why would you pirate a blog post", because most people would pirate movies.
        GeoAtreides 7mo ago
        oh man. my comment was about the very human need to be recognized for something created, made, or thought by a person. People are ok with writing blog posts, they're ok with writing software, and they're ok with give it all for free, but they want their name attached and their contribution recognized.
- lou1306 7mo ago
  Bandwidth and compute constraints make websites all but an endless stream though.
  - spiderfarmer 7mo ago
    That's exactly it. It costs me real time and money to serve the 97% of fake traffic that just takes without giving me anything in return.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- subscribed 7mo ago
  Fine. Me and my 9 friends stand around the cookie-serving person blocking everyone else. It's taking all the cookies over a period of time. The analogy was good.
pbasista 7mo ago
This is a dishonest analogy. In your example, there is only a limited amount of cookies available. While there is no practical limit on the amount of time a certain digital media can be viewed. You are allowed to take one cookie. But you are allowed to view a public website multiple times if you so want.
- throwaway613746 7mo ago
  [dead]
- hollow-moe 7mo ago
  There sure is a limit in the load that the server you're DDoSing can take or the will for people to post new worthy content in public. The supply is limited just not at the first degree. Let's make a small edit: Are you allowed to take all the cookies and then sell them with a small ribbon with your name on it ?
  - spiderfarmer 7mo ago
    Their is no arguing with pirates. They’ll take what’s yours and forget about you while you tend to the ashes.
- spiderfarmer 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ImPostingOnHN 7mo ago
    Wow, how did you manually hand-write 6 million web pages? That is impressive. It would take me a while to even montonically count that high.
    - subscribed 7mo ago
      You're trying to use a quite unfunny "sarcasm" to move the goalpost to the strawman (they never claimed they handcrafted these pages) and quickly gloss ove the fact it's 20 years of work so why not?
bengale 7mo ago
It’s interesting to see twists on the old anti-piracy arguments recycled for anti-ai.
- gruez 7mo ago
  Turns out many (most?) people on the internet were never anti-copyright in the first place. They were just anti-copyright (or at least, refused to challenge the anti-copyright people) because they wanted free movies and/or hated corporations.
  - subscribed 7mo ago
    Many of these people live int he countries where downloading for own use is lawful, since they're paying copyright levy exactly to cover for that. They don't have to hate the copyright.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
Bender 7mo ago
If someone hands out cookies in the supermarket, are you allowed to grab everything and leave? Depends on the trust level of your society. where the store resides. The internet is a cesspool of vagrants, thieves, mentally unstable, people and software with no impulse control, pirates and that is just talking about corporations. It gets so much worse with individuals.

I will copy the supermarket and paste it somewhere else. I'm also going to download a car.

That really depends, but the quick answer is that according to our human social contract, we'd just ask "how many can I take?". Until now, the only real tool to limit scrapers has been throttling, but I don't see any reason for there not to be a similar conversational social contract between machines.

volemo 7mo ago
Isn’t robots.txt such a “social contract between machines”? But AI scrapers couldn’t care less.

drfloyd51 7mo ago

Odd thing about cookies… they disappear after one serving. Websites are an endless stream of cookies. The analogy doesn’t hold.

z3c0 7mo ago
Digital information may be our first post-scarce resource. It's interesting, and sad, to see so many attempt to fit it within scarcity-based economic models.
- Terretta 7mo ago
  > digital information may be our first post-scarce resource … browses memory and storage prices on NewEgg … Hmm. But the word digital is distracting us. The word information is the important one. The question isn't where information goes. It's where information comes from. Is new information post scarcity? Can it ever be?
throwaway613746 7mo ago
[dead]
ghywertelling 7mo ago
If copying content from harddrive to another is theft, then so is DNA copying itself. Everything is a Remix culture. We should promote remix culture rather than hamper it. Everything is a Remix (Original Series) https://youtu.be/nJPERZDfyWc https://youtu.be/nJPERZDfyWc
GeoAtreides 7mo ago
how about this analogy: I created a most tasty cookie recipe. I give it out for free, and all copies have my name because I am vain person who likes to be known far and wide as the best baking chef ever. Is it ok to get the recipe, remove my name, and write in LLM-Codex as the creator? again, i'm ok with giving the recipe for free, i just want my name out there.
- gruez 7mo ago
  >Is it ok to get the recipe, remove my name, and write in LLM-Codex as the creator? again, i'm ok with giving the recipe for free, i just want my name out there. From a legal perspective, it's a pretty clear "no". The instructions in recipes aren't copyrightable. The moral question is more ambiguous, but it's still pretty weak. Most recipes are uncredited, and it's unclear why someone can force everyone to attribute the recipe to them when all they realistically did was tweak the dish a bit. In the example above, I doubt you invented cookies.
  - GeoAtreides 7mo ago
    i'm curious, do you honestly think the argument was about recipes and cookies? maybe it was an analogy? looking back up the comment tree, it does seem to be an analogy, not a discussion about ACTUAL cookies and ACTUAL recipes.
    - gruez 7mo ago
      >maybe it was an analogy? In that case it's a terrible analogy because if you can't get people to agree on the cookies case, what hope do you have to extend it to the case you're trying to apply the analogy to? It's like saying "You wouldn't pirate a movie, why would you pirate a blog post", because most people would pirate movies.
      - GeoAtreides 7mo ago
        oh man. my comment was about the very human need to be recognized for something created, made, or thought by a person. People are ok with writing blog posts, they're ok with writing software, and they're ok with give it all for free, but they want their name attached and their contribution recognized.
lou1306 7mo ago
Bandwidth and compute constraints make websites all but an endless stream though.
- spiderfarmer 7mo ago
  That's exactly it. It costs me real time and money to serve the 97% of fake traffic that just takes without giving me anything in return.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
subscribed 7mo ago
Fine. Me and my 9 friends stand around the cookie-serving person blocking everyone else. It's taking all the cookies over a period of time. The analogy was good.

pbasista 7mo ago

This is a dishonest analogy. In your example, there is only a limited amount of cookies available. While there is no practical limit on the amount of time a certain digital media can be viewed. You are allowed to take one cookie. But you are allowed to view a public website multiple times if you so want.

throwaway613746 7mo ago
[dead]
hollow-moe 7mo ago
There sure is a limit in the load that the server you're DDoSing can take or the will for people to post new worthy content in public. The supply is limited just not at the first degree. Let's make a small edit: Are you allowed to take all the cookies and then sell them with a small ribbon with your name on it ?
- spiderfarmer 7mo ago
  Their is no arguing with pirates. They’ll take what’s yours and forget about you while you tend to the ashes.
spiderfarmer 7mo ago
[flagged]
- ImPostingOnHN 7mo ago
  Wow, how did you manually hand-write 6 million web pages? That is impressive. It would take me a while to even montonically count that high.
  - subscribed 7mo ago
    You're trying to use a quite unfunny "sarcasm" to move the goalpost to the strawman (they never claimed they handcrafted these pages) and quickly gloss ove the fact it's 20 years of work so why not?

bengale 7mo ago

It’s interesting to see twists on the old anti-piracy arguments recycled for anti-ai.

gruez 7mo ago
Turns out many (most?) people on the internet were never anti-copyright in the first place. They were just anti-copyright (or at least, refused to challenge the anti-copyright people) because they wanted free movies and/or hated corporations.
- subscribed 7mo ago
  Many of these people live int he countries where downloading for own use is lawful, since they're paying copyright levy exactly to cover for that. They don't have to hate the copyright.

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

Bender 7mo ago

If someone hands out cookies in the supermarket, are you allowed to grab everything and leave? Depends on the trust level of your society. where the store resides. The internet is a cesspool of vagrants, thieves, mentally unstable, people and software with no impulse control, pirates and that is just talking about corporations. It gets so much worse with individuals.