4 ms·

> Petro is pretty much upstream of everything: plastics, fertilizers, pharmaceuticals, cooking oils, Really! What petroleum-based oil do you cook with?

AnimalMuppet 7mo ago
Plant-based ones that were harvested by machines that burn petroleum.
- singleshot_ 7mo ago
  That’s a pretty amazing definition of upstream. I imagine you probably understand that plastics, pharmaceuticals, and fertilizers are made out of petroleum derivatives, right? Since you seem pretty smart: are there petroleum based cooking oils?
  - phs318u 7mo ago
    The machinery to make them, the fertilisers to grow them, the plastic to package them, the transport to deliver them. It ain’t just cooking oils that will be massively impacted. The entire food chain in the western world is reliant on petrochemicals. The only question is the lag between now and when those impacts start being felt and this translates into bumped prices and/or shortages. EDIT: corrected an autocorrection.
    - falcor84 7mo ago
      Is there anything in that chain that actually requires petroleum and couldn't be replaced with alternative with similar properties and prices?
      - nine_k 7mo ago
        Yes: the time. It's spring time, when most crops are being sowed, of have been sowed and started growing actively. They won't wait several months until the production of fertilizers switches to electrically produced hydrogen, and tractors are upgraded to run off electric power. As the crops ripen, they won't wait until combine harvesters and trucks are converted to run off electric power. Nobody in the agricultural world has a few billions lying around to build massive solar capacity, battery capacity, and redesign the agricultural machinery, all at impossibly breakneck pace. Instead I suggest that they will buy the fuel at higher prices, and sell less produce, and also milk and meat which are downstream from feed crops, at higher prices. More than that, in a bout of bitter irony, the West might need to lift sanctions from Russian oil, and maybe ask Russia to drill and sell more. This, or the US should somehow defeat IRGC and defeat / appease the Iranian Army, and unblock the strait. I wonder if it's going to cost less even along the monetary dimension.
        nicoburns 7mo ago
        > More than that, in a bout of bitter irony, the West might need to lift sanctions from Russian oil, The US has already done this!
        nine_k 7mo ago
        Sanctioned shadow fleet takners still get arrested. With enough oil shortage, these tankers can be left alone, and the whole activity quietly encouraged. Truly, Iran turns out to be an invaluable ally to Russia.
        jltsiren 7mo ago
        Sanctions against Russian oil might ultimately not matter that much. Ukraine has already demonstrated that it can hit Baltic and Black Sea ports, and Arctic ports might also be within range. That would leave only Pacific ports and Asian pipelines open for exports.
    - singleshot_ 7mo ago
      Ok so just checking: no cooking oil is made of petroleum then?
      - JKCalhoun 7mo ago
        To prevent your focus on cooking oil becoming pedantic you might acknowledge at least the veracity of "plastics, fertilizers and pharmaceuticals" being impacted.
        deleted 7mo ago
        [deleted]
        singleshot_ 7mo ago
        You might read the rest of the thread (in particular, my posts above) if you seek these details.
  - AnimalMuppet 7mo ago
    Here's my definition of upstream: If the petroleum stops, the cooking oil stops, even though the cooking oil is 100% plant-based. Given that what we're talking about is disruptions caused by a shortage of petroleum, is there any other definition of "upstream" that is meaningful for the conversation?
  - Erem 7mo ago
    That is the normal definition of upstream. To harvest and transport the olives and olive oil, you need trucks, and often plastic containers and bottles. These farms and distributors will pass on their price of fuel and petroleum materials to the consumer.
- jrmg 7mo ago
  And grown with fertilizer produced using energy provided by burning petroleum.
downrightmike 7mo ago
Electric range
michaelt 7mo ago
A lot of people use fossil fuels in their cooking. Just in the form of a gas, not a liquid.
Snawoot 7mo ago
Hexane is directly used as a solvent for edible cooking oil refining.
- throw0101c 7mo ago
  "Understanding Hexane Extraction of Vegetable Oils": * https://www.andersonintl.com/understanding-hexane-extraction-of-vegetable-oils/ https://www.andersonintl.com/understanding-hexane-extraction... "Towards Substitution of Hexane as Extraction Solvent of Food Products and Ingredients with No Regrets": * https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9655691/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9655691/ > The extraction process is the same for all eight types of oilseeds subject to this rule (soybean, cottonseed, canola, corn germ, sunflower, safflower, peanuts, and flax). In each case, the seeds are crushed and mixed with the solvent. The oil then dissolves in the solvent. Following this step, the solution is separated from the seeds and heated to evaporate the solvent. The evaporated solvents are then condensed and reused in the process. […] This standard restricts plant-wide hexane emissions from each affected facility rather than requiring individual controls at each emission point. * https://www.epa.gov/stationary-sources-air-pollution/solvent-extraction-vegetable-oil-production-national-emission https://www.epa.gov/stationary-sources-air-pollution/solvent...
  - functional_dev 7mo ago
    yeah, hexane is the industry standard for extraction... even bio oils are tied to petroleum. here is comparison on extraction physics vs chemistry for turning it into biodiesel - https://vectree.io/compare/biodiesel-chemical-engineering-vs-soybean-oil-solvent-solubility https://vectree.io/compare/biodiesel-chemical-engineering-vs...

AnimalMuppet 7mo ago

Plant-based ones that were harvested by machines that burn petroleum.

singleshot_ 7mo ago
That’s a pretty amazing definition of upstream. I imagine you probably understand that plastics, pharmaceuticals, and fertilizers are made out of petroleum derivatives, right? Since you seem pretty smart: are there petroleum based cooking oils?
- phs318u 7mo ago
  The machinery to make them, the fertilisers to grow them, the plastic to package them, the transport to deliver them. It ain’t just cooking oils that will be massively impacted. The entire food chain in the western world is reliant on petrochemicals. The only question is the lag between now and when those impacts start being felt and this translates into bumped prices and/or shortages. EDIT: corrected an autocorrection.
  - falcor84 7mo ago
    Is there anything in that chain that actually requires petroleum and couldn't be replaced with alternative with similar properties and prices?
    - nine_k 7mo ago
      Yes: the time. It's spring time, when most crops are being sowed, of have been sowed and started growing actively. They won't wait several months until the production of fertilizers switches to electrically produced hydrogen, and tractors are upgraded to run off electric power. As the crops ripen, they won't wait until combine harvesters and trucks are converted to run off electric power. Nobody in the agricultural world has a few billions lying around to build massive solar capacity, battery capacity, and redesign the agricultural machinery, all at impossibly breakneck pace. Instead I suggest that they will buy the fuel at higher prices, and sell less produce, and also milk and meat which are downstream from feed crops, at higher prices. More than that, in a bout of bitter irony, the West might need to lift sanctions from Russian oil, and maybe ask Russia to drill and sell more. This, or the US should somehow defeat IRGC and defeat / appease the Iranian Army, and unblock the strait. I wonder if it's going to cost less even along the monetary dimension.
      - nicoburns 7mo ago
        > More than that, in a bout of bitter irony, the West might need to lift sanctions from Russian oil, The US has already done this!
        nine_k 7mo ago
        Sanctioned shadow fleet takners still get arrested. With enough oil shortage, these tankers can be left alone, and the whole activity quietly encouraged. Truly, Iran turns out to be an invaluable ally to Russia.
      - jltsiren 7mo ago
        Sanctions against Russian oil might ultimately not matter that much. Ukraine has already demonstrated that it can hit Baltic and Black Sea ports, and Arctic ports might also be within range. That would leave only Pacific ports and Asian pipelines open for exports.
  - singleshot_ 7mo ago
    Ok so just checking: no cooking oil is made of petroleum then?
    - JKCalhoun 7mo ago
      To prevent your focus on cooking oil becoming pedantic you might acknowledge at least the veracity of "plastics, fertilizers and pharmaceuticals" being impacted.
      - deleted 7mo ago
        [deleted]
      - singleshot_ 7mo ago
        You might read the rest of the thread (in particular, my posts above) if you seek these details.
- AnimalMuppet 7mo ago
  Here's my definition of upstream: If the petroleum stops, the cooking oil stops, even though the cooking oil is 100% plant-based. Given that what we're talking about is disruptions caused by a shortage of petroleum, is there any other definition of "upstream" that is meaningful for the conversation?
- Erem 7mo ago
  That is the normal definition of upstream. To harvest and transport the olives and olive oil, you need trucks, and often plastic containers and bottles. These farms and distributors will pass on their price of fuel and petroleum materials to the consumer.
jrmg 7mo ago
And grown with fertilizer produced using energy provided by burning petroleum.

downrightmike 7mo ago

Electric range

michaelt 7mo ago

A lot of people use fossil fuels in their cooking. Just in the form of a gas, not a liquid.

Snawoot 7mo ago

Hexane is directly used as a solvent for edible cooking oil refining.

throw0101c 7mo ago
"Understanding Hexane Extraction of Vegetable Oils": * https://www.andersonintl.com/understanding-hexane-extraction-of-vegetable-oils/ https://www.andersonintl.com/understanding-hexane-extraction... "Towards Substitution of Hexane as Extraction Solvent of Food Products and Ingredients with No Regrets": * https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9655691/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9655691/ > The extraction process is the same for all eight types of oilseeds subject to this rule (soybean, cottonseed, canola, corn germ, sunflower, safflower, peanuts, and flax). In each case, the seeds are crushed and mixed with the solvent. The oil then dissolves in the solvent. Following this step, the solution is separated from the seeds and heated to evaporate the solvent. The evaporated solvents are then condensed and reused in the process. […] This standard restricts plant-wide hexane emissions from each affected facility rather than requiring individual controls at each emission point. * https://www.epa.gov/stationary-sources-air-pollution/solvent-extraction-vegetable-oil-production-national-emission https://www.epa.gov/stationary-sources-air-pollution/solvent...
- functional_dev 7mo ago
  yeah, hexane is the industry standard for extraction... even bio oils are tied to petroleum. here is comparison on extraction physics vs chemistry for turning it into biodiesel - https://vectree.io/compare/biodiesel-chemical-engineering-vs-soybean-oil-solvent-solubility https://vectree.io/compare/biodiesel-chemical-engineering-vs...