4 ms·

All true, and yet: Windows accessibility actually works. I use a screen reader daily. Linux a11y is complete dogshit — AT-SPI2 is unreliable, Orca is barely mai

by ctoth 6mo ago

All true, and yet: Windows accessibility actually works. I use a screen reader daily. Linux a11y is complete dogshit — AT-SPI2 is unreliable, Orca is barely maintained, Wayland broke what little existed. I need something that actually works. When Linux goes off and decides it'll rewrite its working desktop stack and it's still, ten years later, not useable? ADHD-Driven development might be fine if you can see your system. When you can't, being at the whims of some teenager chasing the new shiny is just frustrating.

jorvi 6mo ago
I mean, why are you even on Windows then? Apple is the accessibility king by far. Both Windows and Android are aeons behind.
- jmspring 6mo ago
  I'm not completely sure I would call Apple the accessibility king. It's UI gets worse with each release. Modal dialogues with no keyboard options to make a choice in the window at times, etc.
- Atlas26 6mo ago
  Eh, no. My experience working in web accessibility, it seems most visually impaired individuals have a preference for windows, seemingly because it has the most mature set of accessibility/screen reader tools around largely because of how long windows has been around and how much of a requirement it is for enterprise environments.
  - jorvi 6mo ago
    As far as I know, accessibility has been built into macOS since the early days, and with great care. Which then propagated to application built for macOS, and later on, iOS. iOS is rather magnificent for (visually) impaired people. In contrast, Windows has had its accessibility features bolted on, and the best ones are third-party which makes it even more bolted-on. And then you have twenty different frameworks to make Windows applications, all with varying (but usually mediocre) levels of accessibility support built in.
roenxi 6mo ago
> When Linux goes off and decides it'll rewrite its working desktop stack and it's still, ten years later, not useable? In fairness it wasn't just the rewrite that was the problem, but it looks for all the world like there was a large faction in the Linux UI world around Wayland that believes accessibility is insecure and designed the new systems to make it impossible. It has been an interesting if unfortunate situation that seems to be slowly being fixed.
- LtWorf 6mo ago
  All of this in the name of being able to run proprietary malware like you do on android.
  - MrDrMcCoy 6mo ago
    What on earth are you referring to?
    - LtWorf 6mo ago
      That the security model on Unix (and Linux) is to trust your applications and mistrust other users of the same machine. While now the security model is that your applications are closed source and you cannot trust them, which is why you need wayland.
      - simoncion 6mo ago
        > [T]he security model on Unix (and Linux) is to trust your applications If that were true, httpd (and all other system daemons) would be run as root and neither the 'nobody' user and group nor the various security-related X11 extensions would exist. Anyone who has worked in this field for more than a few years (regardless of their era of entry) knows that nontrivial programs are faulty and can happen to or be induced to do things that are harmful in varying degrees to the operation of the computer that runs them.
        LtWorf 6mo ago
LoganDark 6mo ago
macOS supports VoiceOver even in the boot disk selection screen. That's the real king of accessibility.
- Atlas26 6mo ago
  macOS has some strengths and is certainly ahead of Linux in terms of a11y but my experience working in web accessibility, it seems most visually impaired individuals have a preference for windows, seemingly because it has the most mature set of accessibility/screen reader tools around largely because of how long windows has been around and how much of a requirement it is for enterprise environments.
lll-o-lll 6mo ago
Question. In this new weird age of agentic everything. Does running your system from an agent TUI resolve much of the issues you’d otherwise have without a decent screen reader?
smackeyacky 6mo ago
What can be done to address this? Which project needs the most help do you think?
- chickensong 6mo ago
  A fundraiser and/or financial grant to a foundation like gnome, or a distro that makes a11y a priority, is probably the best way to approach it. Without the financial investment, many contributors just aren't considering or even aware of issue. The distributed best-effort approach works ok for some things, but is at a disadvantage for supporting holistic standards across independent apps.
legacynl 6mo ago
> When Linux goes off and decides it'll rewrite You're acting as if Linux is a single entity that can just decide to improve this or the other. The phrase "Linux should do X" is as useful as "Society should do X". It's not useful unless you can state what needs to change specifically, or you're talking to the right people. > When you can't, being at the whims of some teenager chasing the new shiny is just frustrating. Since most development on linux-related projects is based on volunteering, perhaps you can volunteer and organize for your own 'whims'? Personally I would love it if someone like you would get off their ass and use your knowledge about screenreaders to improve things for everyone.

by ctoth 6mo ago

jorvi 6mo ago

I mean, why are you even on Windows then? Apple is the accessibility king by far. Both Windows and Android are aeons behind.

jmspring 6mo ago
I'm not completely sure I would call Apple the accessibility king. It's UI gets worse with each release. Modal dialogues with no keyboard options to make a choice in the window at times, etc.
Atlas26 6mo ago
Eh, no. My experience working in web accessibility, it seems most visually impaired individuals have a preference for windows, seemingly because it has the most mature set of accessibility/screen reader tools around largely because of how long windows has been around and how much of a requirement it is for enterprise environments.
- jorvi 6mo ago
  As far as I know, accessibility has been built into macOS since the early days, and with great care. Which then propagated to application built for macOS, and later on, iOS. iOS is rather magnificent for (visually) impaired people. In contrast, Windows has had its accessibility features bolted on, and the best ones are third-party which makes it even more bolted-on. And then you have twenty different frameworks to make Windows applications, all with varying (but usually mediocre) levels of accessibility support built in.

roenxi 6mo ago

> When Linux goes off and decides it'll rewrite its working desktop stack and it's still, ten years later, not useable? In fairness it wasn't just the rewrite that was the problem, but it looks for all the world like there was a large faction in the Linux UI world around Wayland that believes accessibility is insecure and designed the new systems to make it impossible. It has been an interesting if unfortunate situation that seems to be slowly being fixed.

LtWorf 6mo ago
All of this in the name of being able to run proprietary malware like you do on android.
- MrDrMcCoy 6mo ago
  What on earth are you referring to?
  - LtWorf 6mo ago
    That the security model on Unix (and Linux) is to trust your applications and mistrust other users of the same machine. While now the security model is that your applications are closed source and you cannot trust them, which is why you need wayland.
    - simoncion 6mo ago
      > [T]he security model on Unix (and Linux) is to trust your applications If that were true, httpd (and all other system daemons) would be run as root and neither the 'nobody' user and group nor the various security-related X11 extensions would exist. Anyone who has worked in this field for more than a few years (regardless of their era of entry) knows that nontrivial programs are faulty and can happen to or be induced to do things that are harmful in varying degrees to the operation of the computer that runs them.
      - LtWorf 6mo ago

LoganDark 6mo ago

macOS supports VoiceOver even in the boot disk selection screen. That's the real king of accessibility.

Atlas26 6mo ago
macOS has some strengths and is certainly ahead of Linux in terms of a11y but my experience working in web accessibility, it seems most visually impaired individuals have a preference for windows, seemingly because it has the most mature set of accessibility/screen reader tools around largely because of how long windows has been around and how much of a requirement it is for enterprise environments.

lll-o-lll 6mo ago

Question. In this new weird age of agentic everything. Does running your system from an agent TUI resolve much of the issues you’d otherwise have without a decent screen reader?

smackeyacky 6mo ago

What can be done to address this? Which project needs the most help do you think?

chickensong 6mo ago
A fundraiser and/or financial grant to a foundation like gnome, or a distro that makes a11y a priority, is probably the best way to approach it. Without the financial investment, many contributors just aren't considering or even aware of issue. The distributed best-effort approach works ok for some things, but is at a disadvantage for supporting holistic standards across independent apps.

legacynl 6mo ago

> When Linux goes off and decides it'll rewrite You're acting as if Linux is a single entity that can just decide to improve this or the other. The phrase "Linux should do X" is as useful as "Society should do X". It's not useful unless you can state what needs to change specifically, or you're talking to the right people. > When you can't, being at the whims of some teenager chasing the new shiny is just frustrating. Since most development on linux-related projects is based on volunteering, perhaps you can volunteer and organize for your own 'whims'? Personally I would love it if someone like you would get off their ass and use your knowledge about screenreaders to improve things for everyone.