4 ms·

This shit is why I don't visit China.

by xvector 6mo ago

EGreg 6mo ago
This shit is why I build platforms like Safecloud: https://community.safebots.ai/t/safecloud-governance-due-process-in-a-distributed-network/35 https://community.safebots.ai/t/safecloud-governance-due-pro...
netsharc 6mo ago
How about the US? What I'm going to write smells of "whataboutism", but it's tragic how more and more of the world is becoming police states. Going to the USA, they want your social media accounts. Regardless of that, the border thugs can probably demand you unlock your devices or they'll detain you for weeks on end, without any repercussions, because that sort of lawlessness is government policy now.
- dmitrygr 6mo ago
  In the US, not disclosing a password is explicitly protected (5th amndmnt), SCOTUS has been clear. not so for biometrics, but so for PIN/passwd
  - comboy 6mo ago
    Haha, here's some random AI generated content: At least 225 judges have ruled in more than 700 cases that the administration's mandatory immigration detention policy likely violates the right to due process[1] The Fifth Amendment's Due Process Clause generally requires those having federal funds cut off to receive notice and an opportunity for a hearing, which was not provided in many of DOGE's spending freezes[2] (there's more but what's the point) 1. https://www.justsecurity.org/107087/tracker-litigation-legal-challenges-trump-administration/ https://www.justsecurity.org/107087/tracker-litigation-legal... 2. https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/many-trump-administration-fiscal-and-regulatory-actions-are-unlawful https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/many-trump-admi...
  - netsharc 6mo ago
    Ah yes, the US government still respects the 5th amendment... like they respect the other amendments as well as the constitution. The constitution doesn't say shooting citizens is illegal, right?
    - plagiarist 6mo ago
      Federal agents couldn't possibly have been aware that executing people on the streets is a violation of those people's rights, so they are covered by QI.
  - garciansmith 6mo ago
    They have? What was the relevant case? It was my understanding that some lower courts have ruled one way, others the opposite. There are also many nuances in particular cases (e.g., the police wanting a broad search of a device for something that may or may not be there versus them knowing for a fact a device has certain information they want).
  - eqvinox 6mo ago
    > In the US, not disclosing a password is explicitly protected (5th amndmnt), That's great but of exactly zero help if you're trying to travel to the US and CBP (or ICE) are staring you down. Even if they don't gulag you, they can always just reject entry for any non-citizen (and these days even some citizens it seems.)
    - dmitrygr 6mo ago
      Any country can reject non-citizen entry, for any reason or no reason at all. In fact, part of a definition of a country is ability to practice control over its territory and who is and is not there. This necessarily includes border controls, which any country can decide to make as onerous as they please. No non-citizen of a country has any right to be present in it, except as permitted by its government, so any country if free to make it as hard as they wish to enter for non-citizens. This may not be a good idea, but control over a territory is literally part of the definition.
      - eqvinox 6mo ago
        > Any country can reject non-citizen entry, for any reason or no reason at all. […] This necessarily includes border controls, which any country can decide to make as onerous as they please. Or, a country could set rules that specify what they will and won't do as part of their entry controls. Just because it's a kind of an "absolute" power doesn't mean you can't still self-impose rules. The benefit being attracting more leisure and business travellers.
        dmitrygr 6mo ago
        Which i acknowledged with "This may not be a good idea,"
  - danlitt 6mo ago
    The 5th amendment only protects citizens, and we are only talking about visiting (as far as I can tell).
dmitrygr 6mo ago
Wait till you hear about most of europe...
- kubb 6mo ago
  Roleplaying a parallel reallity where "Europe" is an oppressive totalitarian regime will never not be funny.
  - dmitrygr 6mo ago
    > Roleplaying a parallel reallity where "Europe" is an oppressive totalitarian regime will never not be funny. Roleplaying inability to read will never not be funny UK: https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/law-requiring-disclosure-of-decryption-keys-in-force https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/law-requiring-dis... France: https://www.fairtrials.org/articles/news/french-court-rules-that-refusing-to-disclose-a-mobile-passcode-to-law-enforcement-is-a-criminal-offence/ https://www.fairtrials.org/articles/news/french-court-rules-... Ireland: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57468750 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57468750
    - kubb 6mo ago
      UK: Police can search phones to counteract human traffickers. China: Police can search phones of dissidents, and jail them for life for criticising the Party. You: Europe is worse than China (or will be really soon I promise). Disingenuous.
      - danlitt 6mo ago
        Nobody claimed Europe was worse than China, only that if you wouldn't visit China for this reason then you shouldn't visit Europe (or the US) for the same reason. Speaking of being disingenuous, when you say "Police can search phones to counteract human traffickers", did you think critically about that at all before writing it? Given one of the stated justifications is "preventing terrorism", and the UK has been illegally arresting Palestine Action supporters as terrorists for over a year, this seems a little naive at least.

This shit is why I don't visit China.

by xvector 6mo ago

This shit is why I don't visit China.

EGreg 6mo ago

This shit is why I build platforms like Safecloud: https://community.safebots.ai/t/safecloud-governance-due-process-in-a-distributed-network/35 https://community.safebots.ai/t/safecloud-governance-due-pro...

netsharc 6mo ago

How about the US? What I'm going to write smells of "whataboutism", but it's tragic how more and more of the world is becoming police states. Going to the USA, they want your social media accounts. Regardless of that, the border thugs can probably demand you unlock your devices or they'll detain you for weeks on end, without any repercussions, because that sort of lawlessness is government policy now.

dmitrygr 6mo ago
In the US, not disclosing a password is explicitly protected (5th amndmnt), SCOTUS has been clear. not so for biometrics, but so for PIN/passwd
- comboy 6mo ago
  Haha, here's some random AI generated content: At least 225 judges have ruled in more than 700 cases that the administration's mandatory immigration detention policy likely violates the right to due process[1] The Fifth Amendment's Due Process Clause generally requires those having federal funds cut off to receive notice and an opportunity for a hearing, which was not provided in many of DOGE's spending freezes[2] (there's more but what's the point) 1. https://www.justsecurity.org/107087/tracker-litigation-legal-challenges-trump-administration/ https://www.justsecurity.org/107087/tracker-litigation-legal... 2. https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/many-trump-administration-fiscal-and-regulatory-actions-are-unlawful https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/many-trump-admi...
- netsharc 6mo ago
  Ah yes, the US government still respects the 5th amendment... like they respect the other amendments as well as the constitution. The constitution doesn't say shooting citizens is illegal, right?
  - plagiarist 6mo ago
    Federal agents couldn't possibly have been aware that executing people on the streets is a violation of those people's rights, so they are covered by QI.
- garciansmith 6mo ago
  They have? What was the relevant case? It was my understanding that some lower courts have ruled one way, others the opposite. There are also many nuances in particular cases (e.g., the police wanting a broad search of a device for something that may or may not be there versus them knowing for a fact a device has certain information they want).
- eqvinox 6mo ago
  > In the US, not disclosing a password is explicitly protected (5th amndmnt), That's great but of exactly zero help if you're trying to travel to the US and CBP (or ICE) are staring you down. Even if they don't gulag you, they can always just reject entry for any non-citizen (and these days even some citizens it seems.)
  - dmitrygr 6mo ago
    Any country can reject non-citizen entry, for any reason or no reason at all. In fact, part of a definition of a country is ability to practice control over its territory and who is and is not there. This necessarily includes border controls, which any country can decide to make as onerous as they please. No non-citizen of a country has any right to be present in it, except as permitted by its government, so any country if free to make it as hard as they wish to enter for non-citizens. This may not be a good idea, but control over a territory is literally part of the definition.
    - eqvinox 6mo ago
      > Any country can reject non-citizen entry, for any reason or no reason at all. […] This necessarily includes border controls, which any country can decide to make as onerous as they please. Or, a country could set rules that specify what they will and won't do as part of their entry controls. Just because it's a kind of an "absolute" power doesn't mean you can't still self-impose rules. The benefit being attracting more leisure and business travellers.
      - dmitrygr 6mo ago
        Which i acknowledged with "This may not be a good idea,"
- danlitt 6mo ago
  The 5th amendment only protects citizens, and we are only talking about visiting (as far as I can tell).

dmitrygr 6mo ago

Wait till you hear about most of europe...

kubb 6mo ago
Roleplaying a parallel reallity where "Europe" is an oppressive totalitarian regime will never not be funny.
- dmitrygr 6mo ago
  > Roleplaying a parallel reallity where "Europe" is an oppressive totalitarian regime will never not be funny. Roleplaying inability to read will never not be funny UK: https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/law-requiring-disclosure-of-decryption-keys-in-force https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/law-requiring-dis... France: https://www.fairtrials.org/articles/news/french-court-rules-that-refusing-to-disclose-a-mobile-passcode-to-law-enforcement-is-a-criminal-offence/ https://www.fairtrials.org/articles/news/french-court-rules-... Ireland: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57468750 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57468750
  - kubb 6mo ago
    UK: Police can search phones to counteract human traffickers. China: Police can search phones of dissidents, and jail them for life for criticising the Party. You: Europe is worse than China (or will be really soon I promise). Disingenuous.
    - danlitt 6mo ago
      Nobody claimed Europe was worse than China, only that if you wouldn't visit China for this reason then you shouldn't visit Europe (or the US) for the same reason. Speaking of being disingenuous, when you say "Police can search phones to counteract human traffickers", did you think critically about that at all before writing it? Given one of the stated justifications is "preventing terrorism", and the UK has been illegally arresting Palestine Action supporters as terrorists for over a year, this seems a little naive at least.