5 ms·

I know this may sound ridiculous, but m-maybe... maybe it's time for us to make software... less bloated? Maybe... just maybe, a TODO list app shouldn't run 4

I know this may sound ridiculous, but m-maybe... maybe it's time for us to make software... less bloated? Maybe... just maybe, a TODO list app shouldn't run 4 processes, and consume hundreds of megabytes of RAM?

guardian5x 7mo ago
Let me be the devils advocate here. Ok, let's say you optimize that TODO list app to only use 16 mb of RAM. What did you gain by that? Would you buy a smartphone that has less RAM now?
- TeMPOraL 7mo ago
  We can't ever escape the market forces? You're right, of course if software gets less bloated, vendors will "value-optimize" hardware so in the end, computers keep being barely usable as they are today.
  - robinsonb5 7mo ago
    This year's average phone is already going to have less RAM than last year's average phone - so anything that reduces the footprint of the apps (and even more importantly, websites) we're using can only be a good thing. Plus it extends the usable life of current hardware.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - bigfishrunning 7mo ago
    Sure, but the price increase will be less, because less ram. Also, the need to keep buying new computers will decrease, because this year's computer isn't much better then last years (but now we can run more/better software!) Less bloat is 100% always a good thing, no matter what the market conditions are.
- cheschire 7mo ago
  It’s the upgrade treadmill you would stop using, and stick to the initial entry device.
  - TeMPOraL 7mo ago
    If only there wasn't a security update treadmill forcing everyone to do regular hardware upgrades.
    - 3form 7mo ago
      Of course, as long as we're in the dreamland, most of these security upgrades do not actually require a hardware upgrade.
      - TeMPOraL 7mo ago
        Technically no (except for the gradual performance drop they introduce, + occasional TPM bullshit), but of course in practice, companies see this as a choice of spending money on back-porting security fixes to a growing range of hardware, vs. making money by not doing that and forcing everyone to buy new hardware instead.
    - layer8 7mo ago
      I’m running Windows 10 ESU on a 13 year old PC without issues. While it’s admittedly near the end of its life (mostly just due to Windows 11, though I might repurpose it for Linux), I’m expecting the next one to also last a decade or longer.
      - TeMPOraL 7mo ago
        So is my wife, her laptop is still decent today, but doesn't support Win 11. I'm not worried about Microsoft as much as certain other competitors killing it - similarly to how she was forced to update to Windows 10 in the first place because, one day, out of the sudden, her web browser decided to refuse running on Windows 7.
    - efreak 6mo ago
- layer8 7mo ago
  It would be nice for browser tabs and apps to reload less often.
- elevation 7mo ago
  16MB still seems massive for this kind of app. I ran Visual Studio 4, not an app, but an entire app factory, on a 66MHz 486 with 16MB RAM. And it was snappy. A TODO list app that uses system UI elements could be significantly smaller. What do I gain if more developers take this approach? Lightning fast performance. Faster backups. Decreased battery drain => longer battery service lifetime => more time in between hardware refreshes. Improved security posture due to orders of magnitude less SLOC. Improved reliability from decreased complexity.
  - fireant 6mo ago
    16MB is less than a display buffer for a 4k display. It is never ever going to happen again just due to hardware realities.
  - phito 6mo ago
    Less RAM usage doesn't equal better performances or faster software. It actually might mean the opposite, if you're not caching things in RAM.
    - account42 6mo ago
      If a TODO list app has more than 16MB of data it could possibly cache in RAM then there is already something seriously wrong.
- wwweston 7mo ago
  Easier to run your todo list at the same time as applications that need the RAM for raw function. Maybe that’s CAD, maybe that’s A/V production, maybe it’s a context window. It’s been convenient that we can throw better hardware at our constraints regularly. Our convenience much less our personal economic functions is not necessarily what markets will generally optimize for, much like developers of electron apps aren’t optimizing for user resources.
TeMPOraL 7mo ago
That's crazy talk. What will you ask for next? Add functionality to make apps at least as good/capable as they were in the 1990s and early 2000s? And then? Apps that interoperate? Insane. More seriously and more ironically, at the same time, we've now reached a strange time where even non-programmers can vibe-code better software than they can buy/subscribe to - not because models are that good, or programming isn't hard, but because enshittification that has this industry rotten to the core and unable to deliver useful tools anymore.
rvz 7mo ago
Tell that to those who are still using Electron, TypeScript to create bloated desktop apps.
odst 7mo ago
I was on LinkedIn last night, and someone posted their new SAAS. The website was basically a calendar where you could log what you did each day of the month. I checked my memory usage, and that site was using 1GB of memory. They were also charging $100 for it...
ProllyInfamous 7mo ago
Among my favorite failed dorking around experiences is pre-Raspberry, when the Arduino was still hobby-level equipment. This was over a decade ago... With only a few kilobytes of code, you could send a UDP packet directly to your phone, with an app you "wrote" with just a few lines of code (to receive, without auto-confirmation).

guardian5x 7mo ago

Let me be the devils advocate here. Ok, let's say you optimize that TODO list app to only use 16 mb of RAM. What did you gain by that? Would you buy a smartphone that has less RAM now?

TeMPOraL 7mo ago
We can't ever escape the market forces? You're right, of course if software gets less bloated, vendors will "value-optimize" hardware so in the end, computers keep being barely usable as they are today.
- robinsonb5 7mo ago
  This year's average phone is already going to have less RAM than last year's average phone - so anything that reduces the footprint of the apps (and even more importantly, websites) we're using can only be a good thing. Plus it extends the usable life of current hardware.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- bigfishrunning 7mo ago
  Sure, but the price increase will be less, because less ram. Also, the need to keep buying new computers will decrease, because this year's computer isn't much better then last years (but now we can run more/better software!) Less bloat is 100% always a good thing, no matter what the market conditions are.
cheschire 7mo ago
It’s the upgrade treadmill you would stop using, and stick to the initial entry device.
- TeMPOraL 7mo ago
  If only there wasn't a security update treadmill forcing everyone to do regular hardware upgrades.
  - 3form 7mo ago
    Of course, as long as we're in the dreamland, most of these security upgrades do not actually require a hardware upgrade.
    - TeMPOraL 7mo ago
      Technically no (except for the gradual performance drop they introduce, + occasional TPM bullshit), but of course in practice, companies see this as a choice of spending money on back-porting security fixes to a growing range of hardware, vs. making money by not doing that and forcing everyone to buy new hardware instead.
  - layer8 7mo ago
    I’m running Windows 10 ESU on a 13 year old PC without issues. While it’s admittedly near the end of its life (mostly just due to Windows 11, though I might repurpose it for Linux), I’m expecting the next one to also last a decade or longer.
    - TeMPOraL 7mo ago
      So is my wife, her laptop is still decent today, but doesn't support Win 11. I'm not worried about Microsoft as much as certain other competitors killing it - similarly to how she was forced to update to Windows 10 in the first place because, one day, out of the sudden, her web browser decided to refuse running on Windows 7.
  - efreak 6mo ago
layer8 7mo ago
It would be nice for browser tabs and apps to reload less often.
elevation 7mo ago
16MB still seems massive for this kind of app. I ran Visual Studio 4, not an app, but an entire app factory, on a 66MHz 486 with 16MB RAM. And it was snappy. A TODO list app that uses system UI elements could be significantly smaller. What do I gain if more developers take this approach? Lightning fast performance. Faster backups. Decreased battery drain => longer battery service lifetime => more time in between hardware refreshes. Improved security posture due to orders of magnitude less SLOC. Improved reliability from decreased complexity.
- fireant 6mo ago
  16MB is less than a display buffer for a 4k display. It is never ever going to happen again just due to hardware realities.
- phito 6mo ago
  Less RAM usage doesn't equal better performances or faster software. It actually might mean the opposite, if you're not caching things in RAM.
  - account42 6mo ago
    If a TODO list app has more than 16MB of data it could possibly cache in RAM then there is already something seriously wrong.
wwweston 7mo ago
Easier to run your todo list at the same time as applications that need the RAM for raw function. Maybe that’s CAD, maybe that’s A/V production, maybe it’s a context window. It’s been convenient that we can throw better hardware at our constraints regularly. Our convenience much less our personal economic functions is not necessarily what markets will generally optimize for, much like developers of electron apps aren’t optimizing for user resources.

TeMPOraL 7mo ago

That's crazy talk. What will you ask for next? Add functionality to make apps at least as good/capable as they were in the 1990s and early 2000s? And then? Apps that interoperate? Insane. More seriously and more ironically, at the same time, we've now reached a strange time where even non-programmers can vibe-code better software than they can buy/subscribe to - not because models are that good, or programming isn't hard, but because enshittification that has this industry rotten to the core and unable to deliver useful tools anymore.

rvz 7mo ago

Tell that to those who are still using Electron, TypeScript to create bloated desktop apps.

odst 7mo ago

I was on LinkedIn last night, and someone posted their new SAAS. The website was basically a calendar where you could log what you did each day of the month. I checked my memory usage, and that site was using 1GB of memory. They were also charging $100 for it...

ProllyInfamous 7mo ago

Among my favorite failed dorking around experiences is pre-Raspberry, when the Arduino was still hobby-level equipment. This was over a decade ago... With only a few kilobytes of code, you could send a UDP packet directly to your phone, with an app you "wrote" with just a few lines of code (to receive, without auto-confirmation).