4 ms·

There's no such thing as gender separate from sex. There's the recognition of one's immutable, inherent, sex, and tacking social expectations on top of it, but

by ragall 7mo ago

There's no such thing as gender separate from sex. There's the recognition of one's immutable, inherent, sex, and tacking social expectations on top of it, but never that one could choose, or "feel". Always derived, never a choice. And when people allowed cross-dressing, it was always clear it was fake, pretending, never true. But they allowed people to have their personal delusions. The origin of this use of "gender" itself is due to the prudishness of English upper classes in pronouncing the word "sex", so they repurposed "gender" which is just the French word "genre" meaning "kind" or "category". Much more acceptable in polite company than something that can allude to a sexual act, fornication.

allreduce 7mo ago
You seem to be partly arguing from a position of ignorance. The trans-ness some people experience is extremely general and durable, far more consistent with the explanation that they innately are their gender somehow[^1], than with choice or psychosis. Some people feel pressured by this to, despite all the societal dis-incentives, medically transition. They then are not only their gender in behavior and reported experience, but also physically (with the exception of some hard-to-change stuff such as fertility). We usually handle such general, durable "personal delusions" by accepting them. If I studied some math for years, can do said math and am employed at my local university doing mathematics, I am a mathematician. I do not have delusions of being a mathematician. If I move to, say Germany, and after years speak the language, have children there, participate in the local culture, and have a citicenship I am now German. Only the most backward people would say I have delusions of being German. Although, this cultural rigidity of course exists, I do not see it as desirable. An advanced society should accept and accomodate its outliers instead of steamrolling over them and making them suffer. [^1]: Afaik currently a neuroscientific explanation is not forthcoming
- ragall 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - allreduce 7mo ago
    > And those people are given the escape hatch of "transness" which is a lie politely allowed by society which gives people the delusion of trying to be what they cannot ever be. I'm arguing that it ought not to be a polite lie if there are people whose mental makeup is better suited to a gender expression not corresponding to their sex, who then inhabit that different role in everyday life. I frankly don't get your assertion that this cannot happen, as there exist people for whom this is reality right now (in part because they are simply not easily identifyable as trans). > young people are mutilating themselves and crippling themselves irreversibly by using hormones My understanding is that the worst side-effect of using hormones is infertility, while surgery comes with more risks. Anyway, it's about trading off mental anguish against possible complications of medical intervention. Where is the problem here? People do cosmetic surgeries for similar, if not more vain, reasons. > when doctors try to treat these people correctly, according to their true nature (sex), trans activists have attacked the doctors calling it "misgendering" Trying to ignore the reality that ones body is different in medical contexts would be indeed harmful. If this kind of activism exists, I do not condone it. I imagine that treating a trans person does not boil down to treating them like a cis person of their sex however, as hormone replacement causes a bunch of differences.
    - ragall 7mo ago
      > I'm arguing that it ought not to be a polite lie A lie is defined in terms of it not being the truth, not in terms of effects on someone. Those effects are entirely irrelevant. > My understanding is that the worst side-effect of using hormones is infertility, while surgery comes with more risks. Men getting oestrogens are getting osteoporosis in their 20's and 30's. > Anyway, it's about trading off mental anguish against possible complications of medical intervention. It's not even doing that in most cases, because the self-loathing that caused people to look for the "transness" escape hatch turns out to have outside causes and won't go away.
      - allreduce 7mo ago
        > A lie is defined in terms of it not being the truth, not in terms of effects on someone. I don't disagree.
ahhhhnoooo 7mo ago
The "tacking social expectations on top" is the part that is gender! There's no biological foundation for wearing a sari, hijab, miniskirt, etc. Those are social expectations for women, or part of the role women fill in society. It's a wholly different concept than biological sex. My penis does not make it impossible to wear eyeliner. But society has a social expectation that I do not. It's not a sex characteristic, it's a gender characteristic. You might believe gender is immutable. I'm not going to argue that with you. But denying the idea that humans have both characteristics derived from biology (sex) and from societal expectations (gender) is simply objectively incorrect.
- ragall 7mo ago
  > It's not a sex characteristic, it's a gender characteristic. They're one and the same. > But denying the idea that humans have both characteristics derived from biology (sex) and from societal expectations (gender) is simply objectively incorrect. I don't deny the existence of social expectations (you severely misread what I wrote), but those expectations were deriving from the recognition of the objective truth of one's sex. They were never a matter of one's "internal feelings", they were an extension of one's sex.
  - s1artibartfast 7mo ago
    What does "being the same" mean to you. A thought or expectation is not a chromosome. Gender having been derived from real sex historically and even predominantly today does not stop some people from redefining it otherwise.
    - ragall 7mo ago
      Things that are dependent on each other are, essentially, the same thing. People can try to redefine whatever they please as long as the rest of society can point out the silliness of it.
      - s1artibartfast 7mo ago

by ragall 7mo ago

allreduce 7mo ago

You seem to be partly arguing from a position of ignorance. The trans-ness some people experience is extremely general and durable, far more consistent with the explanation that they innately are their gender somehow[^1], than with choice or psychosis. Some people feel pressured by this to, despite all the societal dis-incentives, medically transition. They then are not only their gender in behavior and reported experience, but also physically (with the exception of some hard-to-change stuff such as fertility). We usually handle such general, durable "personal delusions" by accepting them. If I studied some math for years, can do said math and am employed at my local university doing mathematics, I am a mathematician. I do not have delusions of being a mathematician. If I move to, say Germany, and after years speak the language, have children there, participate in the local culture, and have a citicenship I am now German. Only the most backward people would say I have delusions of being German. Although, this cultural rigidity of course exists, I do not see it as desirable. An advanced society should accept and accomodate its outliers instead of steamrolling over them and making them suffer. [^1]: Afaik currently a neuroscientific explanation is not forthcoming

ragall 7mo ago
[flagged]
- allreduce 7mo ago
  > And those people are given the escape hatch of "transness" which is a lie politely allowed by society which gives people the delusion of trying to be what they cannot ever be. I'm arguing that it ought not to be a polite lie if there are people whose mental makeup is better suited to a gender expression not corresponding to their sex, who then inhabit that different role in everyday life. I frankly don't get your assertion that this cannot happen, as there exist people for whom this is reality right now (in part because they are simply not easily identifyable as trans). > young people are mutilating themselves and crippling themselves irreversibly by using hormones My understanding is that the worst side-effect of using hormones is infertility, while surgery comes with more risks. Anyway, it's about trading off mental anguish against possible complications of medical intervention. Where is the problem here? People do cosmetic surgeries for similar, if not more vain, reasons. > when doctors try to treat these people correctly, according to their true nature (sex), trans activists have attacked the doctors calling it "misgendering" Trying to ignore the reality that ones body is different in medical contexts would be indeed harmful. If this kind of activism exists, I do not condone it. I imagine that treating a trans person does not boil down to treating them like a cis person of their sex however, as hormone replacement causes a bunch of differences.
  - ragall 7mo ago
    > I'm arguing that it ought not to be a polite lie A lie is defined in terms of it not being the truth, not in terms of effects on someone. Those effects are entirely irrelevant. > My understanding is that the worst side-effect of using hormones is infertility, while surgery comes with more risks. Men getting oestrogens are getting osteoporosis in their 20's and 30's. > Anyway, it's about trading off mental anguish against possible complications of medical intervention. It's not even doing that in most cases, because the self-loathing that caused people to look for the "transness" escape hatch turns out to have outside causes and won't go away.
    - allreduce 7mo ago
      > A lie is defined in terms of it not being the truth, not in terms of effects on someone. I don't disagree.

ahhhhnoooo 7mo ago

The "tacking social expectations on top" is the part that is gender! There's no biological foundation for wearing a sari, hijab, miniskirt, etc. Those are social expectations for women, or part of the role women fill in society. It's a wholly different concept than biological sex. My penis does not make it impossible to wear eyeliner. But society has a social expectation that I do not. It's not a sex characteristic, it's a gender characteristic. You might believe gender is immutable. I'm not going to argue that with you. But denying the idea that humans have both characteristics derived from biology (sex) and from societal expectations (gender) is simply objectively incorrect.

ragall 7mo ago
> It's not a sex characteristic, it's a gender characteristic. They're one and the same. > But denying the idea that humans have both characteristics derived from biology (sex) and from societal expectations (gender) is simply objectively incorrect. I don't deny the existence of social expectations (you severely misread what I wrote), but those expectations were deriving from the recognition of the objective truth of one's sex. They were never a matter of one's "internal feelings", they were an extension of one's sex.
- s1artibartfast 7mo ago
  What does "being the same" mean to you. A thought or expectation is not a chromosome. Gender having been derived from real sex historically and even predominantly today does not stop some people from redefining it otherwise.
  - ragall 7mo ago
    Things that are dependent on each other are, essentially, the same thing. People can try to redefine whatever they please as long as the rest of society can point out the silliness of it.
    - s1artibartfast 7mo ago