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> There's also cis-male people who will "pass" that SRY test if they take it for some reason... This is news to me - which males are you talking about here? >

> There's also cis-male people who will "pass" that SRY test if they take it for some reason... This is news to me - which males are you talking about here? > This is a dumb ass way to try and define the woman's category... It's really not, though. They found a marker they can test for, and have clearly defined exceptions.

gpm 7mo ago
> This is news to me - which males are you talking about here? This poor bloke who found out he was infertile during a premarital medical exam, for instance: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7760426/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7760426/ > It's really not, though. They found a marker they can test for, and have clearly defined exceptions. Have you heard of the politician's fallacy, "something needs to be done, this is something, so this needs to be done"... Your argument here is that... needing a test, and having a test, doesn't mean it's the right test. You're also assuming that we even need a test... evidence (no transfemale olympians ever coming not dead last) suggests we don't.
- badc0ffee 7mo ago
  > This poor bloke who found out he was infertile during a premarital medical exam, for instance: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7760426/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7760426/ Interesting. Perhaps a better test is needed. > You're also assuming that we even need a test... evidence (no transfemale olympians ever coming not dead last) suggests we don't. This isn't just about trans women, but also about DSD cases like Imane Khelif and Caster Semenya.
  - patagurbon 7mo ago
    SRY testing was done at the 1996 games and for a while before that. 8 cisgender women tested positive at that games. Far more than the number of transgender athletes who have ever participated. This resulted in genetic testing being changed from all women to on-suspicion. The bottom line is these tests will catch dozens of people who are phenotypically women, who can even give birth. Why should men be allowed to compete as genetic freaks but not women?
    - badc0ffee 7mo ago
      From what I've read, these women all had CAIS or similar, and testosterone had no effect on their bodies. Thankfully the new IOC guidelines have an exception for that and would let them compete with women. But I want to point out that XY+CAIS individuals cannot conceive or carry a child. They have no ovaries and no uterus. > Why should men be allowed to compete as genetic freaks but not women? They are, if they are female or have CAIS. Caster Semenya, for example, does not meet that standard. Caster was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl, but is not biologically female, rather a male with a DSD (5-ARD) who has testes and fully male levels of testosterone and musculature.
      - ck2 7mo ago
        there are many types of DSD (aka intersex) one type most definitely would "fail" SRY test yet they can give birth using donated egg, IVF, etc. nature makes many variations, it's not exact, it's not binary there is common and less common and that's why it's messy A different approach would have been to accommodate the less common But they purposely decided not to do that because that's the opposite of their goals
ck2 7mo ago
it's because Y chromosome is transient and "males" can lose it with age or illness it doesn't really do anything after puberty it's about gene expression and it can be discarded genetically so yes there are "men" walking around who would show negative on a SRY test and qualify again, they tried this exact thing in 1996 and it went over so badly they ended it by 2000 this is 100% politics and conservative people with power trying to manipulate things biology is not binary, it's messy and not exact there are "common" things and less common Another approach would have been to accommodate the less common But you'll notice they didn't even try to do that

gpm 7mo ago

> This is news to me - which males are you talking about here? This poor bloke who found out he was infertile during a premarital medical exam, for instance: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7760426/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7760426/ > It's really not, though. They found a marker they can test for, and have clearly defined exceptions. Have you heard of the politician's fallacy, "something needs to be done, this is something, so this needs to be done"... Your argument here is that... needing a test, and having a test, doesn't mean it's the right test. You're also assuming that we even need a test... evidence (no transfemale olympians ever coming not dead last) suggests we don't.

badc0ffee 7mo ago
> This poor bloke who found out he was infertile during a premarital medical exam, for instance: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7760426/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7760426/ Interesting. Perhaps a better test is needed. > You're also assuming that we even need a test... evidence (no transfemale olympians ever coming not dead last) suggests we don't. This isn't just about trans women, but also about DSD cases like Imane Khelif and Caster Semenya.
- patagurbon 7mo ago
  SRY testing was done at the 1996 games and for a while before that. 8 cisgender women tested positive at that games. Far more than the number of transgender athletes who have ever participated. This resulted in genetic testing being changed from all women to on-suspicion. The bottom line is these tests will catch dozens of people who are phenotypically women, who can even give birth. Why should men be allowed to compete as genetic freaks but not women?
  - badc0ffee 7mo ago
    From what I've read, these women all had CAIS or similar, and testosterone had no effect on their bodies. Thankfully the new IOC guidelines have an exception for that and would let them compete with women. But I want to point out that XY+CAIS individuals cannot conceive or carry a child. They have no ovaries and no uterus. > Why should men be allowed to compete as genetic freaks but not women? They are, if they are female or have CAIS. Caster Semenya, for example, does not meet that standard. Caster was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl, but is not biologically female, rather a male with a DSD (5-ARD) who has testes and fully male levels of testosterone and musculature.
    - ck2 7mo ago
      there are many types of DSD (aka intersex) one type most definitely would "fail" SRY test yet they can give birth using donated egg, IVF, etc. nature makes many variations, it's not exact, it's not binary there is common and less common and that's why it's messy A different approach would have been to accommodate the less common But they purposely decided not to do that because that's the opposite of their goals

ck2 7mo ago

it's because Y chromosome is transient and "males" can lose it with age or illness it doesn't really do anything after puberty it's about gene expression and it can be discarded genetically so yes there are "men" walking around who would show negative on a SRY test and qualify again, they tried this exact thing in 1996 and it went over so badly they ended it by 2000 this is 100% politics and conservative people with power trying to manipulate things biology is not binary, it's messy and not exact there are "common" things and less common Another approach would have been to accommodate the less common But you'll notice they didn't even try to do that