6 ms·

PhD's from the Faculty's Perspective: cheap slave labor.

drpgq 14y ago
I was actually expecting something more along these lines. Such as pointing out faculty don't necessarily have your best interests at heart.
- denzil_correa 14y ago
  As pointed out by others, it is not good to paint everyone by the same brush. My advisor has always had the best of intentions in his mind for me. I know of other studens who say something similar as well. I understand that there an be varying experiences but do not let these experiences make you generalize any fraternity.
  - omnisci 14y ago
    Agreed, one can't say that all PIs work the same, it isn't true. Also, some do have the best of intentions, but don't have the skills to facilitate their student's career. In a sense, each lab is a small business, and I think this is exactly what needs to be taught to a new professor. It is a real shame that this isn't taught. People management, money management, and resource management are skills that some people, regardless of how brilliant they are, don't have. As it would in any business, these attributes ultimately lead to a lab that is run poorly. The really bad thing is that these labs continue to operate, which is a huge waste...especially when talking about federally funded labs.
  - drpgq 14y ago
    I didn't say everyone.
af3 14y ago
+1, totally agreed. Now, what slave is suppose to do in order to make himself/herself any good, not only contribute to master's good? publish: papers, code, articles, notes! the higher quality and larger amount, the better! The goal is to be observed by the next employer (hopefully not a master), but just a team lead ;)
andrewcooke 14y ago
offensive bullshit. my partner is a prof. she works her fucking heart out trying to help her students. downvote all you like, you ignorant fools (so ready with a cheap piece of cynicism). everyone i know cares deeply about their students. they're like surrogate kids.
- EvilTerran 14y ago
  http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In Comments Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. ... Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you.
  - andrewcooke 14y ago
    i wasn't inviting anyone. i was responding to downvotes. and frankly, i don't see why i should be civil to people who mindlessly accuse others of not caring about something that, in fact, is hugely important to them, just to appear cynically cool. more generally, the problem with hn these days is not a lack of politeness; it is a lack of insight, depth and originality. read any thread here. this kind of cheap, cynical throw-away remark is the bland norm. maybe you should find some authority figure saying "be smart and care" and try posting that? best of luck...
    - stephencanon 14y ago
      It's worth noting that the poster you responded to said "from the faculty's perspective", not "from their adviser's perspective". Individual faculty members care a lot for their individual grad students, and generally go out of their way to help them. They academic system as a whole (which is partially run by the faculty) treats them pretty poorly (long hours, way below market pay--often near the poverty line and largely without benefits that well educated professionals [which is what grad students are] would expect in any other job). No one is saying that your partner is a bad person. They're saying that the system is a bad system.
    - 14y ago
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
_delirium 14y ago
They're actually not great from that perspective: when you count the portion of tuition that professors are expected to pay (at least at U.S. institutions), PhD students aren't any cheaper than postdocs, and typically less productive / require more hand-holding. Now postdocs, there's a deal: accomplished researcher who already has several degrees in the field and knows how to write papers and conduct experiments, available for ~$45-50k.
- mcguire 14y ago
  On the other hand, you don't get to count coup for postdocs.
  - trhtrsh 14y ago
    What's "coup" ?
    - ableal 14y ago
      Searching "count coup" pops up this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup University professors are expected to advise, and see through graduation, their share of M.S. and Ph.D. students.
      - mcguire 14y ago
        Yes, that's it. For "normal" faculty members (i.e. those not waving around Turing awards, Fields medals, and Nobels), the number and quality of Ph.D. students (where I'm from, Masters didn't count) the professor has advised is one of the most, if not the most, important prestige factors. Getting grants and writing papers will get you tenure, but are significantly less important after you have it.
        _delirium 14y ago
        I agree that's generally true, though my sense is that in CS it might be shifting somewhat: an alternate route to level-up once you get tenure is to go all-in on the big-money grants and hiring personnel. Start pulling in some multi-million-dollar DARPA projects and hire not only post-docs but more senior staff researchers, and an army of programmers, and become a manager of a bustling research enterprise. Then you can start working media appearances (maybe through the help of PR staff you've hired, even), that kind of thing. Those kinds of profs often don't bother with supervising grad students anymore, or pawn off the job on someone else in their empire. It's sort of like running a little consulting firm within academia. In areas with fewer DARPA-sized projects, students are definitely the best way to get major influence, though, since producing research progeny is a good way to spread ideas, general approaches to research, etc. It seems to be particularly the case in mathematics that certain mathematicians are influential in part because they mentored a substantial portion of a generation of researchers.
danieldk 14y ago
Well, depends on where you are really. For instance, here in the Netherlands, you barely follow courses (20-25 EC in four years) and the teaching load is small (usually at least one 5 EC course in four years, more if you want). So, you can dedicate ~80% of your time to research as a paid employee of the university, including ~ 1.5 months paid leave including weekends, holiday money (8% of year income), 13th month (one month extra salary per year) and benefits (retirement fund, unemployment benefit). I have just finished my thesis, and during the last four years I have felt as welcome and as much part of the staff as any other employee.
- arethuza 14y ago
  I worked as a Research Associate (contract researcher) for a UK university in the 1990s - this paid a decent salary, had minimal teaching requirements (a couple of hours a week) and if your supervisor was decent the topic you were paid to work on was pretty close to your PhD research topic - usually they would find money from some contract to pay you for the 6 months or so required to do nothing but write your thesis. Most people doing things this way took 4 or 5 years rather than the 3 of full time PhD students - but at least you got a decent salary - not a bad trade off (not to mention the other perks of working on EU funded projects). [Of course, some supervisors were good some were awful - I heard some horror stories from colleagues].

drpgq 14y ago

I was actually expecting something more along these lines. Such as pointing out faculty don't necessarily have your best interests at heart.

denzil_correa 14y ago
As pointed out by others, it is not good to paint everyone by the same brush. My advisor has always had the best of intentions in his mind for me. I know of other studens who say something similar as well. I understand that there an be varying experiences but do not let these experiences make you generalize any fraternity.
- omnisci 14y ago
  Agreed, one can't say that all PIs work the same, it isn't true. Also, some do have the best of intentions, but don't have the skills to facilitate their student's career. In a sense, each lab is a small business, and I think this is exactly what needs to be taught to a new professor. It is a real shame that this isn't taught. People management, money management, and resource management are skills that some people, regardless of how brilliant they are, don't have. As it would in any business, these attributes ultimately lead to a lab that is run poorly. The really bad thing is that these labs continue to operate, which is a huge waste...especially when talking about federally funded labs.
- drpgq 14y ago
  I didn't say everyone.

af3 14y ago

+1, totally agreed. Now, what slave is suppose to do in order to make himself/herself any good, not only contribute to master's good? publish: papers, code, articles, notes! the higher quality and larger amount, the better! The goal is to be observed by the next employer (hopefully not a master), but just a team lead ;)

andrewcooke 14y ago

offensive bullshit. my partner is a prof. she works her fucking heart out trying to help her students. downvote all you like, you ignorant fools (so ready with a cheap piece of cynicism). everyone i know cares deeply about their students. they're like surrogate kids.

EvilTerran 14y ago
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In Comments Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. ... Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you.
- andrewcooke 14y ago
  i wasn't inviting anyone. i was responding to downvotes. and frankly, i don't see why i should be civil to people who mindlessly accuse others of not caring about something that, in fact, is hugely important to them, just to appear cynically cool. more generally, the problem with hn these days is not a lack of politeness; it is a lack of insight, depth and originality. read any thread here. this kind of cheap, cynical throw-away remark is the bland norm. maybe you should find some authority figure saying "be smart and care" and try posting that? best of luck...
  - stephencanon 14y ago
    It's worth noting that the poster you responded to said "from the faculty's perspective", not "from their adviser's perspective". Individual faculty members care a lot for their individual grad students, and generally go out of their way to help them. They academic system as a whole (which is partially run by the faculty) treats them pretty poorly (long hours, way below market pay--often near the poverty line and largely without benefits that well educated professionals [which is what grad students are] would expect in any other job). No one is saying that your partner is a bad person. They're saying that the system is a bad system.
  - 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

_delirium 14y ago

They're actually not great from that perspective: when you count the portion of tuition that professors are expected to pay (at least at U.S. institutions), PhD students aren't any cheaper than postdocs, and typically less productive / require more hand-holding. Now postdocs, there's a deal: accomplished researcher who already has several degrees in the field and knows how to write papers and conduct experiments, available for ~$45-50k.

mcguire 14y ago
On the other hand, you don't get to count coup for postdocs.
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  What's "coup" ?
  - ableal 14y ago
    Searching "count coup" pops up this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup University professors are expected to advise, and see through graduation, their share of M.S. and Ph.D. students.
    - mcguire 14y ago
      Yes, that's it. For "normal" faculty members (i.e. those not waving around Turing awards, Fields medals, and Nobels), the number and quality of Ph.D. students (where I'm from, Masters didn't count) the professor has advised is one of the most, if not the most, important prestige factors. Getting grants and writing papers will get you tenure, but are significantly less important after you have it.
      - _delirium 14y ago
        I agree that's generally true, though my sense is that in CS it might be shifting somewhat: an alternate route to level-up once you get tenure is to go all-in on the big-money grants and hiring personnel. Start pulling in some multi-million-dollar DARPA projects and hire not only post-docs but more senior staff researchers, and an army of programmers, and become a manager of a bustling research enterprise. Then you can start working media appearances (maybe through the help of PR staff you've hired, even), that kind of thing. Those kinds of profs often don't bother with supervising grad students anymore, or pawn off the job on someone else in their empire. It's sort of like running a little consulting firm within academia. In areas with fewer DARPA-sized projects, students are definitely the best way to get major influence, though, since producing research progeny is a good way to spread ideas, general approaches to research, etc. It seems to be particularly the case in mathematics that certain mathematicians are influential in part because they mentored a substantial portion of a generation of researchers.

danieldk 14y ago

Well, depends on where you are really. For instance, here in the Netherlands, you barely follow courses (20-25 EC in four years) and the teaching load is small (usually at least one 5 EC course in four years, more if you want). So, you can dedicate ~80% of your time to research as a paid employee of the university, including ~ 1.5 months paid leave including weekends, holiday money (8% of year income), 13th month (one month extra salary per year) and benefits (retirement fund, unemployment benefit). I have just finished my thesis, and during the last four years I have felt as welcome and as much part of the staff as any other employee.

arethuza 14y ago
I worked as a Research Associate (contract researcher) for a UK university in the 1990s - this paid a decent salary, had minimal teaching requirements (a couple of hours a week) and if your supervisor was decent the topic you were paid to work on was pretty close to your PhD research topic - usually they would find money from some contract to pay you for the 6 months or so required to do nothing but write your thesis. Most people doing things this way took 4 or 5 years rather than the 3 of full time PhD students - but at least you got a decent salary - not a bad trade off (not to mention the other perks of working on EU funded projects). [Of course, some supervisors were good some were awful - I heard some horror stories from colleagues].