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Quitting your job is a good first step but ideally you're supposed to sink $200/mo into tokens to code your AI-generated startup idea instead of hiring app deve

Quitting your job is a good first step but ideally you're supposed to sink $200/mo into tokens to code your AI-generated startup idea instead of hiring app developers.

pigpop 7mo ago
My thoughts exactly when I read "Instead of taking on IT jobs, Biesma hired two app developers, paying them each €120 an hour" like holy shit bro, you already have a subscription, you could have prototyped your idea for essentially zero additional cost and tested it for PMF. He wouldn't even have needed to turn down contracts since it doesn't take full-time effort to steer a coding model. Would have been much better off with a somewhat buggy AI prototype and spending extra on marketing to see if it got any traction.
- joe_mamba 7mo ago
  > paying them each €120 an hour Those must be some of the best programmers in Europe at that rate. Anyone know how one can get one of those sweet €120 an hour gigs? Whenever I talked to recruiters they say their customers pay way below that, so there must be some scam I'm not in on.
  - alibarber 7mo ago
    Probably includes circa 30% employer contributions to various taxes (employer side, the employee will be paying their own of course). And possibly VAT.
    - joe_mamba 7mo ago
      Still an amazing deal compared to the rates I got quoted by recruiters. I'm guessing you must first live in Amsterdam for that. In Vienna you get laugh if you asked for 120, and there you pay even more in taxes than NL.
      - alibarber 7mo ago
        It's high but I mean that the developer is asking for 90, and 120 is leaving the employers pocket. 60-70 is then making it to the developer's pocket.
      - 0x3f 7mo ago
        Perhaps, but Vienna has better QoL so maybe it balances out at this level. If you want to just maximize income, there are better places for that than Amsterdam.
        joe_mamba 7mo ago
        >but Vienna has better QoL According to who? Visiting tourists rating amenities and people on welfare? NL infrastructure and tech jobs market is leagues beyond what Austria offers. >If you want to just maximize income, there are better places for that than Amsterdam. Like which?
        0x3f 7mo ago
        > According to who? Tourists? Just about every QoL index around. [1] [2] > NL infrastructure and tech jobs market is leagues beyond what Austria offers. These are not QoL-related beyond pure income. > Like which? California, NYC, London even. --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Liveability_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Liveability_Index [2] https://www.mercer.com/about/newsroom/zurich-offers-highest-quality-of-living-for-international-assignees-according-to-mercers-2024-quality-of-living-city-ranking/ https://www.mercer.com/about/newsroom/zurich-offers-highest-...
        joe_mamba 7mo ago
        >Just about every QoL index around. [1] [2] What if random arbitrary QoL indexes made by corporations listed on the stock market don't match real world reality? Just look at how made those indexes like The Economist. Plus Austria has an allocated budget of spending taxpayer money on advertising to attract foreigners and tourists to come there. So given this, I can't take an index made by "the economist" in good faith as being an objective representation when it was most likely a paid ad disguised as access journalism like so many journalist pieces today. My experienced reality is a much better and objective index, thank you very much. >These are not QoL-related beyond pure income. Except that income lets you get better life for you and your family. There's no guarantee the government will always, or ever, have your back. And we are on a tech forum here after all, so obviously the QoL for tech workers matter most for me since people are driven by self interest, including you. If Vienna was better athan Amsterdam you'd see a lot more tech expats from HN come there instead of NL but they aren't, because work opportunities and money matters, and you won't be happy in an underpaid toxic tech job in any city regardless if it's Vienna who you believed has the best QoL even though you never lived there, but just because the stro turfed internet told you so. >California, NYC, London even. Except that unlike Amsterdam, none of those cities are in the EU therefore not accessible to EU labor, and we were talking about a sum in Euros.
  - Ekaros 7mo ago
    I think billing rates for experienced seniors like architects are around there or higher. But this is basically before cut to company, taxes and any employment costs. What companies can pay to employees is always significantly lower.
  - bdangubic 7mo ago
    > Whenever I talked to recruiters they say their customers pay way below that. Recruiters gotta eat too :)
  - 0x3f 7mo ago
    Pretty normal senior contractor rate in London.
    - teaearlgraycold 7mo ago
      Not far off from SF rates TBH.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 7mo ago
    My experience was that recruiters tried lowballing me, because they wanted to set up a system, where they ran the contract, and I subcontracted with them. They wanted to pay me $50/hr, but they would charge the customer $150/hr. It got quite insulting. They would dis my capabilities to me, but I’ll bet I walked on water, when they talked to the customer.
    - Bombthecat 7mo ago
      It's because companies reduced sourcing and supplier to two to four companies. You either get in with those companies or zero chance. They know that and abuse the shit out of the situation. Rumours has it, that companies are thinking about to end this setup and allow "anyone in" because recruiters ( Accenture, sthree and what not) are abusing this. With we get 150 we pay 60. What do you think what kind of developers you get? The bad and left over..
  - anonzzzies 7mo ago
    120/hr is not that strange as freelancer in the EU. My rate is 2k/day. My first gig, in the early 90s, was 90 guilders/hr while in uni which went up to 90 euros/hr begin 2000s. 2010 it was 200/hrs. But you must have a (one person) company and some portfolio. Just a job will never do this. If you are good with numbers and money and tax management (meticulous deduct, keep receipts, know what you can and cannot do in your country) you can make a lot of money in the EU and without the risk of ever sleeping under a bridge if it fails.

Quitting your job is a good first step but ideally you're supposed to sink $200/mo into tokens to code your AI-generated startup idea instead of hiring app developers.

pigpop 7mo ago

My thoughts exactly when I read "Instead of taking on IT jobs, Biesma hired two app developers, paying them each €120 an hour" like holy shit bro, you already have a subscription, you could have prototyped your idea for essentially zero additional cost and tested it for PMF. He wouldn't even have needed to turn down contracts since it doesn't take full-time effort to steer a coding model. Would have been much better off with a somewhat buggy AI prototype and spending extra on marketing to see if it got any traction.

joe_mamba 7mo ago
> paying them each €120 an hour Those must be some of the best programmers in Europe at that rate. Anyone know how one can get one of those sweet €120 an hour gigs? Whenever I talked to recruiters they say their customers pay way below that, so there must be some scam I'm not in on.
- alibarber 7mo ago
  Probably includes circa 30% employer contributions to various taxes (employer side, the employee will be paying their own of course). And possibly VAT.
  - joe_mamba 7mo ago
    Still an amazing deal compared to the rates I got quoted by recruiters. I'm guessing you must first live in Amsterdam for that. In Vienna you get laugh if you asked for 120, and there you pay even more in taxes than NL.
    - alibarber 7mo ago
      It's high but I mean that the developer is asking for 90, and 120 is leaving the employers pocket. 60-70 is then making it to the developer's pocket.
    - 0x3f 7mo ago
      Perhaps, but Vienna has better QoL so maybe it balances out at this level. If you want to just maximize income, there are better places for that than Amsterdam.
      - joe_mamba 7mo ago
        >but Vienna has better QoL According to who? Visiting tourists rating amenities and people on welfare? NL infrastructure and tech jobs market is leagues beyond what Austria offers. >If you want to just maximize income, there are better places for that than Amsterdam. Like which?
        0x3f 7mo ago
        > According to who? Tourists? Just about every QoL index around. [1] [2] > NL infrastructure and tech jobs market is leagues beyond what Austria offers. These are not QoL-related beyond pure income. > Like which? California, NYC, London even. --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Liveability_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Liveability_Index [2] https://www.mercer.com/about/newsroom/zurich-offers-highest-quality-of-living-for-international-assignees-according-to-mercers-2024-quality-of-living-city-ranking/ https://www.mercer.com/about/newsroom/zurich-offers-highest-...
        joe_mamba 7mo ago
        >Just about every QoL index around. [1] [2] What if random arbitrary QoL indexes made by corporations listed on the stock market don't match real world reality? Just look at how made those indexes like The Economist. Plus Austria has an allocated budget of spending taxpayer money on advertising to attract foreigners and tourists to come there. So given this, I can't take an index made by "the economist" in good faith as being an objective representation when it was most likely a paid ad disguised as access journalism like so many journalist pieces today. My experienced reality is a much better and objective index, thank you very much. >These are not QoL-related beyond pure income. Except that income lets you get better life for you and your family. There's no guarantee the government will always, or ever, have your back. And we are on a tech forum here after all, so obviously the QoL for tech workers matter most for me since people are driven by self interest, including you. If Vienna was better athan Amsterdam you'd see a lot more tech expats from HN come there instead of NL but they aren't, because work opportunities and money matters, and you won't be happy in an underpaid toxic tech job in any city regardless if it's Vienna who you believed has the best QoL even though you never lived there, but just because the stro turfed internet told you so. >California, NYC, London even. Except that unlike Amsterdam, none of those cities are in the EU therefore not accessible to EU labor, and we were talking about a sum in Euros.
- Ekaros 7mo ago
  I think billing rates for experienced seniors like architects are around there or higher. But this is basically before cut to company, taxes and any employment costs. What companies can pay to employees is always significantly lower.
- bdangubic 7mo ago
  > Whenever I talked to recruiters they say their customers pay way below that. Recruiters gotta eat too :)
- 0x3f 7mo ago
  Pretty normal senior contractor rate in London.
  - teaearlgraycold 7mo ago
    Not far off from SF rates TBH.
- ChrisMarshallNY 7mo ago
  My experience was that recruiters tried lowballing me, because they wanted to set up a system, where they ran the contract, and I subcontracted with them. They wanted to pay me $50/hr, but they would charge the customer $150/hr. It got quite insulting. They would dis my capabilities to me, but I’ll bet I walked on water, when they talked to the customer.
  - Bombthecat 7mo ago
    It's because companies reduced sourcing and supplier to two to four companies. You either get in with those companies or zero chance. They know that and abuse the shit out of the situation. Rumours has it, that companies are thinking about to end this setup and allow "anyone in" because recruiters ( Accenture, sthree and what not) are abusing this. With we get 150 we pay 60. What do you think what kind of developers you get? The bad and left over..
- anonzzzies 7mo ago
  120/hr is not that strange as freelancer in the EU. My rate is 2k/day. My first gig, in the early 90s, was 90 guilders/hr while in uni which went up to 90 euros/hr begin 2000s. 2010 it was 200/hrs. But you must have a (one person) company and some portfolio. Just a job will never do this. If you are good with numbers and money and tax management (meticulous deduct, keep receipts, know what you can and cannot do in your country) you can make a lot of money in the EU and without the risk of ever sleeping under a bridge if it fails.