4 ms·

huh i wonder why they want to do that? surely not because ICE unlawfully executed two US citizens on tape in broad daylight that didn't happen under Obama or

huh i wonder why they want to do that? surely not because ICE unlawfully executed two US citizens on tape in broad daylight that didn't happen under Obama or Biden. wonder why.

rayiner 7mo ago
[flagged]
- whateveracct 7mo ago
  but aren't those people legitimate voters? who cares if they're the "only reason" if it's legitimate - sorry, white-y! you lose
  - rayiner 7mo ago
    “Legal” is different from “legitimate” which is different yet again from “good.” If a party can only win by people who are zero or only one generations away from countries that aren’t very well governed—who are steeped in the culture and values and civic sense of those not so nice countries—well that’s legal. But that’s all it is. Let me put it this way. If the GOP somehow figured out how to flood your city with people from rural Alabama, would you be happy? They would be legal voters, would they not? (The deeply ironic thing is that democrats understand perfectly well that rural Alabama is a product of the culture of the people who built it. But they think that phenomenon somehow ends right at the U.S. border.)
    - mindslight 7mo ago
      How do you choose between this argument that immigrants from other cultures are crucially supporting the Democratic party, and your other common argument that immigrants from other cultures are more inclined to vote reactionary? When you do pick one, do you at least stick with it for the whole day? Or do you switch between them from thread to thread?
      - rayiner 7mo ago
        On average, immigrants support democrats. For example in 2016: https://www.statista.com/statistics/632012/voter-turnout-of-the-exit-polls-of-the-2016-elections-by-immigrant-status/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/632012/voter-turnout-of-.... It’s the same result for Obama versus Romney, etc. On the other hand they have been trending Republican in the Trump era, and Trump probably won them narrowly: https://www.cato.org/blog/naturalized-immigrants-probably-voted-republican-2024 https://www.cato.org/blog/naturalized-immigrants-probably-vo.... But the same analysis says Biden won them by 27 points in 2020. Both facts are true, both facts are bad. In the long run, immigrants will culturally change both parties just as they change the whole country. What will happen, and is already happening, is that American politics will begin to resemble Latin American politics. People voting for who promises more free stuff most of the time, punctuated by periods of right-wing authoritarian reaction.
        mindslight 7mo ago
        Your original comment included the implication that this was a deliberate pillar of the Democratic party. ("[one] party can only win by people who are zero or only one generations away from countries that aren’t very well governed"). That is outside of the scope of a dispassionate analysis, so regrouping at one is a bit disingenuous. But responding to your new goal posts - if immigration is so central to this dynamic, then why is most of the support for the current authoritarian reactionary promising more free stuff still coming from non-immigrants? Shouldn't the noble non-immigrants see the populism trap and heartily reject it? And since they aren't, wouldn't a better explanation just be that politics in general is decaying towards simplistic populism? And that this focus on immigrants is merely another simplistic populist narrative (from both parties really, even though only one has made it central to their platform).
        rayiner 7mo ago
        > Your original comment included the implication that this was a deliberate pillar of the Democratic party. ("[one] party can only win by people who are zero or only one generations away from countries that aren’t very well governed") Wait, hold on. That’s a purely factual statement. Immigrants are 10% of the electorate. If they support one party 2:1, that’s enough to swing many presidential elections. In fact, half of Trump’s win in 2024 is attributable to immigrants going from Biden +27 to Trump +1. Without immigrants (and their kids), it would be very hard for Democrats, in their current form, to win a national election. That’s just a factual statement. I don’t think being a party that can only win with immigrant support is a “deliberate pillar” of the party. It’s just a consequence of traditional American culture being very different from the cultures in other countries when it comes to views about government. > then why is most of the support for the current authoritarian reactionary promising more free stuff still coming from non-immigrants? Because most people are non-immigrants.
    - whateveracct 7mo ago
      ooooh you're one of _those_. america is for the white's. immigrants should assimilate to Our Western Culture types. like it or not, those immigrants are your countrymen now. they have an equal vote to you. learn to coexist and compromise. that's the spirit of this country. i don't see any degradation of America here. should've known better than to engage. that type is always in bad faith (sartre quote blah blah blah)
      - tastyface 7mo ago
        Weirdly, he is (IIRC) a first generation Bangladeshi immigrant with mixed race kids. Not sure how it all makes sense in his head. I imagine that someday his kids will read his archived comment history and feel embarrassed.
        rayiner 7mo ago
        > he is (IIRC) a first generation Bangladeshi immigrant Right, so someone who understands that Bangladesh is the way it is in large part due to Bangladeshi culture. I’m not raising my kids with any foreign identity or culture, just like my parents didn’t raise me with any foreign identity. My dad doesn’t own a Bangladeshi flag and thinks calling him a hyphenated American makes him a second class citizen. The view that “brown people” have to cling to the culture of some dysfunctional country they left—waving around the flag of a country their ancestors built into something they had to leave—is one that was dormant when I was growing up, fortunately for me. > mixed race kids The concept of “mixed race” is a vile holdover from segregation. It’s a way of designating something superficial as meaningful. We don’t talk about “mixed eye color kids.” Luckily for my kids, all three came out three different colors, so they understand intuitively that skin color is just about how much their mom attacks them with sunscreen and isn’t an identity. > I imagine that someday his kids will read his archived comment history and feel embarrassed. My kids unfortunately will be reading this from an America where mass immigration without assimilation has led to political factionalism and dysfunction. A place that’s more like Syria or Iraq, where people vote based on group membership than individual preferences. And they’ll unfortunately know I was right.
        7mo ago
    - tastyface 7mo ago
      By your own logic, it sounds like you should not be voting. Do you live by your own principles? Or did you decide that you're not actually "foreign-culture socialized," unlike those *other* first generation immigrants?
      - rayiner 7mo ago
        I’m definitely foreign socialized and shouldn’t be voting. But I also think upper middle class people should pay higher taxes but I don’t pay more than I owe.
        Larrikin 7mo ago
        I think we will collectively upvote and vouch all of your posts if you vow to never vote again. Federal, local, and Internet polls
    - deleted 7mo ago
      [deleted]
    - onetimeusename 7mo ago
      [flagged]
      - whateveracct 7mo ago
        people vote as individuals there is no evidence that votes are being coerced or forced or revealed to authorities. only that homogenous groups tend to have homogenous political opinions as well. that is not some untoward ill that is a risk to America.
        onetimeusename 7mo ago
        So some "homogenous political opinions" are superior to others right? Encouraging ethnic blocs is fine in one direction but not in the other I guess. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47526112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47526112
  - foldr 7mo ago
    The person you're talking to doesn't even believe in the universal franchise (or that he himself should be allowed to vote!): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46885305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46885305 (second paragraph)
- maest 7mo ago
  Your views are getting more unhinged by the day fyi. You used to have interesting, if tediously contrarian things to say. But now it's just strawmans and weird takes like the above.
  - rayiner 7mo ago
    Serious question: what exactly is unhinged about my point? Naturalized citizens supported Hilary Clinton 2-1: https://www.statista.com/statistics/632012/voter-turnout-of-the-exit-polls-of-the-2016-elections-by-immigrant-status/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/632012/voter-turnout-of-.... They supported Biden by 27. Do you think Democrats can’t Google these statistics? Or do you think it’s an insignificant share of the electorate? (Foreign-born is 10% and children raised and socialized by foreign born parents is even higher.) Or do you think Democrats’ immigration viewpoints have nothing to do with what’s good for their electoral prospects? Or do you think Democrats do know all this. But it’s “unhinged” to notice because you think people from Bangladesh will participate in civic governance the same way as a sixth generation Vermonter? Or do you realize they won’t and you’re actually okay with that? These are genuine questions. I’m struggling to understand your ideological priors here.
  - tastyface 7mo ago
    I wonder if his clients are aware of his posting history.

huh i wonder why they want to do that? surely not because ICE unlawfully executed two US citizens on tape in broad daylight that didn't happen under Obama or Biden. wonder why.

rayiner 7mo ago

[flagged]

whateveracct 7mo ago
but aren't those people legitimate voters? who cares if they're the "only reason" if it's legitimate - sorry, white-y! you lose
- rayiner 7mo ago
  “Legal” is different from “legitimate” which is different yet again from “good.” If a party can only win by people who are zero or only one generations away from countries that aren’t very well governed—who are steeped in the culture and values and civic sense of those not so nice countries—well that’s legal. But that’s all it is. Let me put it this way. If the GOP somehow figured out how to flood your city with people from rural Alabama, would you be happy? They would be legal voters, would they not? (The deeply ironic thing is that democrats understand perfectly well that rural Alabama is a product of the culture of the people who built it. But they think that phenomenon somehow ends right at the U.S. border.)
  - mindslight 7mo ago
    How do you choose between this argument that immigrants from other cultures are crucially supporting the Democratic party, and your other common argument that immigrants from other cultures are more inclined to vote reactionary? When you do pick one, do you at least stick with it for the whole day? Or do you switch between them from thread to thread?
    - rayiner 7mo ago
      On average, immigrants support democrats. For example in 2016: https://www.statista.com/statistics/632012/voter-turnout-of-the-exit-polls-of-the-2016-elections-by-immigrant-status/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/632012/voter-turnout-of-.... It’s the same result for Obama versus Romney, etc. On the other hand they have been trending Republican in the Trump era, and Trump probably won them narrowly: https://www.cato.org/blog/naturalized-immigrants-probably-voted-republican-2024 https://www.cato.org/blog/naturalized-immigrants-probably-vo.... But the same analysis says Biden won them by 27 points in 2020. Both facts are true, both facts are bad. In the long run, immigrants will culturally change both parties just as they change the whole country. What will happen, and is already happening, is that American politics will begin to resemble Latin American politics. People voting for who promises more free stuff most of the time, punctuated by periods of right-wing authoritarian reaction.
      - mindslight 7mo ago
        Your original comment included the implication that this was a deliberate pillar of the Democratic party. ("[one] party can only win by people who are zero or only one generations away from countries that aren’t very well governed"). That is outside of the scope of a dispassionate analysis, so regrouping at one is a bit disingenuous. But responding to your new goal posts - if immigration is so central to this dynamic, then why is most of the support for the current authoritarian reactionary promising more free stuff still coming from non-immigrants? Shouldn't the noble non-immigrants see the populism trap and heartily reject it? And since they aren't, wouldn't a better explanation just be that politics in general is decaying towards simplistic populism? And that this focus on immigrants is merely another simplistic populist narrative (from both parties really, even though only one has made it central to their platform).
        rayiner 7mo ago
        > Your original comment included the implication that this was a deliberate pillar of the Democratic party. ("[one] party can only win by people who are zero or only one generations away from countries that aren’t very well governed") Wait, hold on. That’s a purely factual statement. Immigrants are 10% of the electorate. If they support one party 2:1, that’s enough to swing many presidential elections. In fact, half of Trump’s win in 2024 is attributable to immigrants going from Biden +27 to Trump +1. Without immigrants (and their kids), it would be very hard for Democrats, in their current form, to win a national election. That’s just a factual statement. I don’t think being a party that can only win with immigrant support is a “deliberate pillar” of the party. It’s just a consequence of traditional American culture being very different from the cultures in other countries when it comes to views about government. > then why is most of the support for the current authoritarian reactionary promising more free stuff still coming from non-immigrants? Because most people are non-immigrants.
  - whateveracct 7mo ago
    ooooh you're one of _those_. america is for the white's. immigrants should assimilate to Our Western Culture types. like it or not, those immigrants are your countrymen now. they have an equal vote to you. learn to coexist and compromise. that's the spirit of this country. i don't see any degradation of America here. should've known better than to engage. that type is always in bad faith (sartre quote blah blah blah)
    - tastyface 7mo ago
      Weirdly, he is (IIRC) a first generation Bangladeshi immigrant with mixed race kids. Not sure how it all makes sense in his head. I imagine that someday his kids will read his archived comment history and feel embarrassed.
      - rayiner 7mo ago
        > he is (IIRC) a first generation Bangladeshi immigrant Right, so someone who understands that Bangladesh is the way it is in large part due to Bangladeshi culture. I’m not raising my kids with any foreign identity or culture, just like my parents didn’t raise me with any foreign identity. My dad doesn’t own a Bangladeshi flag and thinks calling him a hyphenated American makes him a second class citizen. The view that “brown people” have to cling to the culture of some dysfunctional country they left—waving around the flag of a country their ancestors built into something they had to leave—is one that was dormant when I was growing up, fortunately for me. > mixed race kids The concept of “mixed race” is a vile holdover from segregation. It’s a way of designating something superficial as meaningful. We don’t talk about “mixed eye color kids.” Luckily for my kids, all three came out three different colors, so they understand intuitively that skin color is just about how much their mom attacks them with sunscreen and isn’t an identity. > I imagine that someday his kids will read his archived comment history and feel embarrassed. My kids unfortunately will be reading this from an America where mass immigration without assimilation has led to political factionalism and dysfunction. A place that’s more like Syria or Iraq, where people vote based on group membership than individual preferences. And they’ll unfortunately know I was right.
        7mo ago
  - tastyface 7mo ago
    By your own logic, it sounds like you should not be voting. Do you live by your own principles? Or did you decide that you're not actually "foreign-culture socialized," unlike those *other* first generation immigrants?
    - rayiner 7mo ago
      I’m definitely foreign socialized and shouldn’t be voting. But I also think upper middle class people should pay higher taxes but I don’t pay more than I owe.
      - Larrikin 7mo ago
        I think we will collectively upvote and vouch all of your posts if you vow to never vote again. Federal, local, and Internet polls
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - onetimeusename 7mo ago
    [flagged]
    - whateveracct 7mo ago
      people vote as individuals there is no evidence that votes are being coerced or forced or revealed to authorities. only that homogenous groups tend to have homogenous political opinions as well. that is not some untoward ill that is a risk to America.
      - onetimeusename 7mo ago
        So some "homogenous political opinions" are superior to others right? Encouraging ethnic blocs is fine in one direction but not in the other I guess. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47526112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47526112
- foldr 7mo ago
  The person you're talking to doesn't even believe in the universal franchise (or that he himself should be allowed to vote!): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46885305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46885305 (second paragraph)
maest 7mo ago
Your views are getting more unhinged by the day fyi. You used to have interesting, if tediously contrarian things to say. But now it's just strawmans and weird takes like the above.
- rayiner 7mo ago
  Serious question: what exactly is unhinged about my point? Naturalized citizens supported Hilary Clinton 2-1: https://www.statista.com/statistics/632012/voter-turnout-of-the-exit-polls-of-the-2016-elections-by-immigrant-status/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/632012/voter-turnout-of-.... They supported Biden by 27. Do you think Democrats can’t Google these statistics? Or do you think it’s an insignificant share of the electorate? (Foreign-born is 10% and children raised and socialized by foreign born parents is even higher.) Or do you think Democrats’ immigration viewpoints have nothing to do with what’s good for their electoral prospects? Or do you think Democrats do know all this. But it’s “unhinged” to notice because you think people from Bangladesh will participate in civic governance the same way as a sixth generation Vermonter? Or do you realize they won’t and you’re actually okay with that? These are genuine questions. I’m struggling to understand your ideological priors here.
- tastyface 7mo ago
  I wonder if his clients are aware of his posting history.