4 ms·

Unfortunately, having to mess around with a JVM is a tough sell for a lot of data analysis folks. I'm not saying it's rational or right, but a lot of people hea

by asa400 7mo ago

Unfortunately, having to mess around with a JVM is a tough sell for a lot of data analysis folks. I'm not saying it's rational or right, but a lot of people hear "JVM" and they go "no thank you". Personally I think it's a non-issue, but you have to meet people where they are.

famicom0 7mo ago
Meanwhile, I find it very annoying to deal with the litany of Python versions and the distinction between global packages and user packages, and needing to manage virtual environments just to run scripts. That being said, I am not an expert but that's always been my experience when I need to do anything Python related.
pjmlp 7mo ago
The irony given the mess of Python setup where there are companies whose business is to solve Python tooling.
- asa400 7mo ago
  Oh, I completely agree. Like I said, it's not rational, but it is what it is.
cmiles74 7mo ago
I dunno, if you can slog through the Python ecosystem then the JVM is starting to look not so bad. Plus with Clojure you don't need to deal with the headache and heartache that is Maven.
- KingMob 7mo ago
  I think that's true for only a limited subset of programs, though. The Clojure lib ecosystem is nowhere near the size of the broader Java ecosystem, so you frequently end up pulling Maven deps to plug holes anyway.
  - pjmlp 7mo ago
    That is the goal of a polyglot runtime, and why Clojure was designed to be a hosted language that embraces the platform, unlike others that make their tiny island.
    - KingMob 6mo ago
      Uhhh, yes, but I was trying to convey to the parent that most real-world Clojure programs won't isolate you from Maven.
packetlost 7mo ago
idk, I don't think I've had to do anything beyond install the JVM to work with Clojure. I'm not really a fan of the clj commands flag choices though (-M, -X, etc. all make no sense)
KingMob 7mo ago
It's unfortunate, but people's associations with Java the lang bleed into their beliefs about the JVM, one of the most heavily-optimized VMs on the planet. There's some historical cruft (especially the memory model), but picking the JVM as a target is a great decision (especially with Graal offering even more options).
- pjmlp 7mo ago
  Exactly, especially because there isn't THE JVM, rather a bunch of versions each with their own approaches to GC, JIT, JIT caches, ahead of time compilation. Only .NET follows up on it at scale.

by asa400 7mo ago

famicom0 7mo ago

Meanwhile, I find it very annoying to deal with the litany of Python versions and the distinction between global packages and user packages, and needing to manage virtual environments just to run scripts. That being said, I am not an expert but that's always been my experience when I need to do anything Python related.

pjmlp 7mo ago

The irony given the mess of Python setup where there are companies whose business is to solve Python tooling.

asa400 7mo ago
Oh, I completely agree. Like I said, it's not rational, but it is what it is.

cmiles74 7mo ago

I dunno, if you can slog through the Python ecosystem then the JVM is starting to look not so bad. Plus with Clojure you don't need to deal with the headache and heartache that is Maven.

KingMob 7mo ago
I think that's true for only a limited subset of programs, though. The Clojure lib ecosystem is nowhere near the size of the broader Java ecosystem, so you frequently end up pulling Maven deps to plug holes anyway.
- pjmlp 7mo ago
  That is the goal of a polyglot runtime, and why Clojure was designed to be a hosted language that embraces the platform, unlike others that make their tiny island.
  - KingMob 6mo ago
    Uhhh, yes, but I was trying to convey to the parent that most real-world Clojure programs won't isolate you from Maven.

packetlost 7mo ago

idk, I don't think I've had to do anything beyond install the JVM to work with Clojure. I'm not really a fan of the clj commands flag choices though (-M, -X, etc. all make no sense)

KingMob 7mo ago

It's unfortunate, but people's associations with Java the lang bleed into their beliefs about the JVM, one of the most heavily-optimized VMs on the planet. There's some historical cruft (especially the memory model), but picking the JVM as a target is a great decision (especially with Graal offering even more options).

pjmlp 7mo ago
Exactly, especially because there isn't THE JVM, rather a bunch of versions each with their own approaches to GC, JIT, JIT caches, ahead of time compilation. Only .NET follows up on it at scale.