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> We have > 300 M people. That's a huge population Um, unless you're talking to India which manages to pull off votes with 1.2 Billion People. You are like 25

> We have > 300 M people. That's a huge population Um, unless you're talking to India which manages to pull off votes with 1.2 Billion People. You are like 25% their population.

danielweber 14y ago
If you vote with paper, you don't worry at all if it's counted right. Note that this doesn't mean it's counted right: it just means you have no way to worry about it. Maybe election officials are debating whether that line for Joe is a mistake or not. Now the problems are seen immediately instead of unseen, which was one of the driving forces for people who didn't want to ever go through the hanging chad issue again. I'm certainly not saying computer voting is better than paper voting -- they each have their trade-offs. (I'd prefer paper ballots that voters can "self-scan" by a machine that is very conservative in what it accepts, but that's a whole separate discussion.)
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  An electronic voting machine may present an obvious error in the UI and ALSO may present a hidden error in pubishing the vote. So it's worse.
param 14y ago
Dear Sir, As an Indian I can testify that we actually have far more election abuse - people being blocked from entering a voting booth, vote boxes(still vote on paper) being stolen, voting booths set on fire... Of course, again, there is media acting as a watchdog, and a hope that the manipulation is statistically insignificant.
- masklinn 14y ago
  > vote boxes(still vote on paper) FWIW, most of the world votes on paper, and if history's anything to go by paper ballot is way more reliable than electronic, at least when it comes to auditability. I'm sure it's possible to design a secure and tamper-proof electronic voting system[0] with a great, useable interface... but nobody seems interested in doing that. [0] system, not machine, because you most likely want the machine recording votes and the machine tallying them to be fully separate.
- azharcs 14y ago
  I would like to disagree with Mr.Param who is either being a cynic or trying to be "me-too". India is aggressively moving away from paper-ballot voting to EVM's. In our last general elections, a million electronic voting machines (EVM's) were used which reduces vote-rigging, ballot capture etc. In maybe 5 years, we will be completely rid of paper-ballots. For further read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_voting_machines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_voting_machines India also has option called "None of the Above" as a voting option, which is extremely democratic.
  - param 14y ago
    All right, I have been living in the US for a while, and didn't know about the move to electronic voting. However, my point about there being FAR more abuse in India stands. Here are some references: Fatal attacks near polling booth - 2009 - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123985213176424031.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123985213176424031.html Booth capturing "found primarily in India" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booth_capturing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booth_capturing intimidation on racial lines: http://uk.oneworld.net/article/view/162808/1/5847 http://uk.oneworld.net/article/view/162808/1/5847 You are plain kidding if you feel elections in India are anywhere close to being as good as US.
pnathan 14y ago
> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=countries%20by%20population http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=countries%20by%20popula... this is a lot of people. I am sure that if we investigate the details of elections in India, Indonesia, and Brazil, we will find an array of fudged votes and issues. In other words, I am pretty sure that the error rate for the mix of remote/paper/electronic voting will hold pretty constant regardless of population size.
- felipeko 14y ago
  Brazil actually has a very organized election. Aside from bad politicians we have to chose from, the election does not have many problems. We have a judicial system just for election (with judges and clear laws) ready to take actions (and they do take) when something goes wrong. All election occurs in one day, a sunday so everyone can vote, and the results usually come in less than 4 hours, because all vote is electronic.
jusben1369 14y ago
Somehow, given the context of this thread, I suspect you're realize this wasn't really a very productive counter ;-)

> We have > 300 M people. That's a huge population Um, unless you're talking to India which manages to pull off votes with 1.2 Billion People. You are like 25% their population.

danielweber 14y ago

If you vote with paper, you don't worry at all if it's counted right. Note that this doesn't mean it's counted right: it just means you have no way to worry about it. Maybe election officials are debating whether that line for Joe is a mistake or not. Now the problems are seen immediately instead of unseen, which was one of the driving forces for people who didn't want to ever go through the hanging chad issue again. I'm certainly not saying computer voting is better than paper voting -- they each have their trade-offs. (I'd prefer paper ballots that voters can "self-scan" by a machine that is very conservative in what it accepts, but that's a whole separate discussion.)

trhtrsh 14y ago
An electronic voting machine may present an obvious error in the UI and ALSO may present a hidden error in pubishing the vote. So it's worse.

param 14y ago

Dear Sir, As an Indian I can testify that we actually have far more election abuse - people being blocked from entering a voting booth, vote boxes(still vote on paper) being stolen, voting booths set on fire... Of course, again, there is media acting as a watchdog, and a hope that the manipulation is statistically insignificant.

masklinn 14y ago
> vote boxes(still vote on paper) FWIW, most of the world votes on paper, and if history's anything to go by paper ballot is way more reliable than electronic, at least when it comes to auditability. I'm sure it's possible to design a secure and tamper-proof electronic voting system[0] with a great, useable interface... but nobody seems interested in doing that. [0] system, not machine, because you most likely want the machine recording votes and the machine tallying them to be fully separate.
azharcs 14y ago
I would like to disagree with Mr.Param who is either being a cynic or trying to be "me-too". India is aggressively moving away from paper-ballot voting to EVM's. In our last general elections, a million electronic voting machines (EVM's) were used which reduces vote-rigging, ballot capture etc. In maybe 5 years, we will be completely rid of paper-ballots. For further read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_voting_machines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_voting_machines India also has option called "None of the Above" as a voting option, which is extremely democratic.
- param 14y ago
  All right, I have been living in the US for a while, and didn't know about the move to electronic voting. However, my point about there being FAR more abuse in India stands. Here are some references: Fatal attacks near polling booth - 2009 - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123985213176424031.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123985213176424031.html Booth capturing "found primarily in India" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booth_capturing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booth_capturing intimidation on racial lines: http://uk.oneworld.net/article/view/162808/1/5847 http://uk.oneworld.net/article/view/162808/1/5847 You are plain kidding if you feel elections in India are anywhere close to being as good as US.

pnathan 14y ago

> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=countries%20by%20population http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=countries%20by%20popula... this is a lot of people. I am sure that if we investigate the details of elections in India, Indonesia, and Brazil, we will find an array of fudged votes and issues. In other words, I am pretty sure that the error rate for the mix of remote/paper/electronic voting will hold pretty constant regardless of population size.

felipeko 14y ago
Brazil actually has a very organized election. Aside from bad politicians we have to chose from, the election does not have many problems. We have a judicial system just for election (with judges and clear laws) ready to take actions (and they do take) when something goes wrong. All election occurs in one day, a sunday so everyone can vote, and the results usually come in less than 4 hours, because all vote is electronic.

jusben1369 14y ago

Somehow, given the context of this thread, I suspect you're realize this wasn't really a very productive counter ;-)