7 ms·

Quite true, and your compensation will drop to match, and then some. The question is can you afford to purchase any property in Manhattan, even with the salary

by bijanv 14y ago

Quite true, and your compensation will drop to match, and then some. The question is can you afford to purchase any property in Manhattan, even with the salary most may get? There are quite a few companies in Toronto (startups as well) paying over $120K for well versed engineers. I can't say it's the norm but it's not impossible to find. But having lived in SF myself, I can tell you it all balances out if you're thinking of settling down in an area. The cost of housing, healthcare (if you're part of a startup that doesn't have full insurance coverage - only my partner who worked at one of those big companies you dislike was offered full coverage comparable to what you'd get in Canada, well slightly better really), etc all add up while that's adjusted for up here. Depends on how you measure it? You're right and I don't expect everyone to flock here. It makes sense for certain people, but I always like throwing out stats like these: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/canada-among-the-happiest-countries-in-the-world/article610509/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/ec... as BS as they may be. In the US my "backup" plan is working with more talented, well-funded people on some other thing. In Canada my "backup" plan involves drop ceilings and fluorescent lighting. I would have agreed with you 2 years ago but more and more I see amazing companies take off here. And again I've lived in SF as well so I know very well what you're talking about and it's the main reason I suggest a lot of new grads to hang out down there for a few years before coming back up. It is a huge reason to still live down the states but there are a ton of cool well funded companies here as well. Also when there's 300,000 Canadians living in San Francisco, most of that talent you're talking about is Canadian anyways!

potatolicious 14y ago
> "The question is can you afford to purchase any property in Manhattan" Nope, but I can't afford to buy in Vancouver on a Vancouver salary either, so that's rather besides the point. Toronto is possible, though one has to question the angle of "come to Toronto! You can own your own home in a city with a limited tech job market!" - I'll keep renting, thanks. Now that I think of it, I don't think I can afford to buy downtown (Manhattan-equivalent) on a Torontonian software salary. I'd have to live further afield - and I can afford to buy in Brooklyn or Queens. So really the affordability argument is a wash. > "I can't say it's the norm but it's not impossible to find." I hear this refrain a lot from Canadians - everyone's "heard of" these magical fairy dust jobs but nobody can point at one. Not to mention in NYC (and especially the Bay Area) $120K for even moderately experienced engineers is a matter of course. So why do I want to go back to Canada and claw my way at the incredibly rare $120K job with thousands of other hopefuls, when I can interview for most startups in NYC/SF/SV and get that kind of offer as a matter of course? > "Also when there's 300,000 Canadians living in San Francisco, most of that talent you're talking about is Canadian anyways!" And that's exactly why I can't move back. Not only would I be fighting a severely uphill battle in a substantially worse job market, for worse compensation, but the bulk of your local talent has already fled. I'm not doubting the prowess of Canadian engineers (lest I doubt my own skills, I suppose), I'm doubting the realism for a software employee to move back to Canada. Even accounting for cost of living differences I'd be making less, my purchasing power substantially decreases, my job options narrow dramatically (two orders of magnitude? probably), and there are very few institutional employers worth working for as a backup. In SF/NYC I have Google, Facebook, Amazon, among many others. In Toronto I have TD, Royal, and Scotia. > "And just to name a few aside from us" I also hear this line of argument a lot. You know why people in SF/NYC don't list their local startups? Because it's impossible. It would take literally days just to recite the names from a list. Hell, in my building in Brooklyn there are more VC-funded startups than the list you just gave. Which isn't to say that these startups aren't worthwhile - not at all. What I am saying is that the scale difference is so ridiculous wide that comparisons seem silly. "We have a handful of well-known successes" is a long, long, long, LONG way from "We have a sea of well-known successes and an order of magnitude more funded startups ready to hire". I don't doubt that there are some very worthwhile startups in Toronto/Canada, and that they are good places to work. What I doubt is my place in that job market, where the number of good places to work (that can afford to pay me) can be exhaustively enumerated in my head.

by bijanv 14y ago

potatolicious 14y ago

> "The question is can you afford to purchase any property in Manhattan" Nope, but I can't afford to buy in Vancouver on a Vancouver salary either, so that's rather besides the point. Toronto is possible, though one has to question the angle of "come to Toronto! You can own your own home in a city with a limited tech job market!" - I'll keep renting, thanks. Now that I think of it, I don't think I can afford to buy downtown (Manhattan-equivalent) on a Torontonian software salary. I'd have to live further afield - and I can afford to buy in Brooklyn or Queens. So really the affordability argument is a wash. > "I can't say it's the norm but it's not impossible to find." I hear this refrain a lot from Canadians - everyone's "heard of" these magical fairy dust jobs but nobody can point at one. Not to mention in NYC (and especially the Bay Area) $120K for even moderately experienced engineers is a matter of course. So why do I want to go back to Canada and claw my way at the incredibly rare $120K job with thousands of other hopefuls, when I can interview for most startups in NYC/SF/SV and get that kind of offer as a matter of course? > "Also when there's 300,000 Canadians living in San Francisco, most of that talent you're talking about is Canadian anyways!" And that's exactly why I can't move back. Not only would I be fighting a severely uphill battle in a substantially worse job market, for worse compensation, but the bulk of your local talent has already fled. I'm not doubting the prowess of Canadian engineers (lest I doubt my own skills, I suppose), I'm doubting the realism for a software employee to move back to Canada. Even accounting for cost of living differences I'd be making less, my purchasing power substantially decreases, my job options narrow dramatically (two orders of magnitude? probably), and there are very few institutional employers worth working for as a backup. In SF/NYC I have Google, Facebook, Amazon, among many others. In Toronto I have TD, Royal, and Scotia. > "And just to name a few aside from us" I also hear this line of argument a lot. You know why people in SF/NYC don't list their local startups? Because it's impossible. It would take literally days just to recite the names from a list. Hell, in my building in Brooklyn there are more VC-funded startups than the list you just gave. Which isn't to say that these startups aren't worthwhile - not at all. What I am saying is that the scale difference is so ridiculous wide that comparisons seem silly. "We have a handful of well-known successes" is a long, long, long, LONG way from "We have a sea of well-known successes and an order of magnitude more funded startups ready to hire". I don't doubt that there are some very worthwhile startups in Toronto/Canada, and that they are good places to work. What I doubt is my place in that job market, where the number of good places to work (that can afford to pay me) can be exhaustively enumerated in my head.