4 ms·

And how will renewables like solar and wind wirk with Class 8 trucks, shipping, aviation or process heat or as feedstock? How have they worked in Germany, which

And how will renewables like solar and wind wirk with Class 8 trucks, shipping, aviation or process heat or as feedstock? How have they worked in Germany, which has shut down her nuclear plants and Russian hydrocarbons? Please - tell us.

stared 7mo ago
> Please - tell us. No need of sarcasm here. Or going the route of a false dichotomy. Again, not all dependencies can be eliminated. But it is better to have less dependencies. Closing nuclear plants in Germany was a disaster, and here we agree.
- OneDonOne 7mo ago
  One of those dependencies w.r.t large solar panel buildouts, will be charcoal. [0] And lots of it. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335083312_Why_do_we_burn_coal_and_trees_to_make_solar_panels https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335083312_Why_do_we...
  - triceratops 7mo ago
    Solar panels are recyclable. Once you have enough for your needs you can stop burning charcoal. You can never stop burning oil if all you use is oil. Also I wasn't aware you could extract oil, gas, and coal with no environmental impact. I must have just dreamed the words Deepwater Horizon.
Valgrim 7mo ago
I'm gonna be the annoying guy who points out the obvious thats being repeated again and again for the last 50 years... For transport, trains! Trains of different sizes, shapes and designs, solve most of the transport issues. The fact that western countries are behind on this doesnt mean it's too late to start. For heat, better insulation and heat pumps do wonders! For feedstock maybe feeding animals is simply bot the way we should move forward. And I say all this as a person who drives a gas car 70 miles every day, lives in an old house with bad insulation and eat meat several times a week
- OneDonOne 7mo ago
  By feedstock, I mean the hydrocarbons that are required for the bulk chemicals, fertilizers, plastics, rubbers, detergents, pharmaceuticals etc. that we take for granted. And you still need trucks for last mile haulage.
  - AnthonyMouse 7mo ago
    Class 8 trucks are solved. Volvo, Freightliner and Tesla all make electric semis. They're not a large percentage of the installed base yet but there is nothing that needs to be invented, only adopted, and the latter will pick up as the battery costs continue to decline. Chemical feedstocks are only a small percentage of the petroleum market. The large majority is fuel. If you stop burning it there is plenty of supply and you're not worried about whether you can get any from Iran.
    - OneDonOne 7mo ago
      Not only are electric trucks are unprofitable, it means you switch your dependency from Middle-Eastern fossil fuels to Chinese rare earths. At least we can make biofuels from sugarcane
      - TheTxT 6mo ago
        You don’t burn your batteries though. You build them once and then use them for 20 years. They will just keep working when the next war erupts on the other side of the planet.
      - defrost 6mo ago
        You can also process rare earth concentrates on your own soil, there's no need to offshore that to China and Malaysia other than "No waste ponds in my Backyard".
      - AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
        Electric trucks already have a lower TCO than diesel trucks. LFP batteries don't even contain rare earths.
gpm 7mo ago
> Class 8 trucks Half of the "heavy duty vehicles" (which I believe is roughly similar to the classification you are using) sold in China in December were electric. Between rapidly improving batteries and maturing technology for swapping batteries as a refuelling strategy electrification of trucks is the obvious and inevitable future. They are simply cheaper to operate.
- OneDonOne 7mo ago
  Good for the Chinese. The rest of us do not have the upfront capital to purchase these trucks. And there is still the matter of fertilizer, concrete, bulk chemicals etc. And solar panels. There is a very good reason why solar psnel factories (like JinkoSolar run off coal or hydro and not solar power.
  - jemmyw 7mo ago
    > The rest of us do not have the upfront capital to purchase these trucks. We can afford what we can do. We don't need to do what we can afford. If we wanted to build and deploy electric trucks enmasse like China then we could do it, regardless of upfront capital.
    - coffeebeqn 6mo ago
      Right the US lacks capital for tech investment..
      - wookmaster 6mo ago
        not sure lacks is the correct word...
  - rickydroll 7mo ago
    That's one of the wonderful things about automotive infrastructure. You can make gradual incremental changes and slowly improve the entire system. It may not be fast enough or cheap enough, but you can still make it happen.
  - 7mo ago
triceratops 7mo ago
If electricity is cheap enough you can synthesize hydrocarbons. For aviation, and shipping, and even trucking if EVs and trains can't do it.

stared 7mo ago

> Please - tell us. No need of sarcasm here. Or going the route of a false dichotomy. Again, not all dependencies can be eliminated. But it is better to have less dependencies. Closing nuclear plants in Germany was a disaster, and here we agree.

OneDonOne 7mo ago
One of those dependencies w.r.t large solar panel buildouts, will be charcoal. [0] And lots of it. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335083312_Why_do_we_burn_coal_and_trees_to_make_solar_panels https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335083312_Why_do_we...
- triceratops 7mo ago
  Solar panels are recyclable. Once you have enough for your needs you can stop burning charcoal. You can never stop burning oil if all you use is oil. Also I wasn't aware you could extract oil, gas, and coal with no environmental impact. I must have just dreamed the words Deepwater Horizon.

Valgrim 7mo ago

I'm gonna be the annoying guy who points out the obvious thats being repeated again and again for the last 50 years... For transport, trains! Trains of different sizes, shapes and designs, solve most of the transport issues. The fact that western countries are behind on this doesnt mean it's too late to start. For heat, better insulation and heat pumps do wonders! For feedstock maybe feeding animals is simply bot the way we should move forward. And I say all this as a person who drives a gas car 70 miles every day, lives in an old house with bad insulation and eat meat several times a week

OneDonOne 7mo ago
By feedstock, I mean the hydrocarbons that are required for the bulk chemicals, fertilizers, plastics, rubbers, detergents, pharmaceuticals etc. that we take for granted. And you still need trucks for last mile haulage.
- AnthonyMouse 7mo ago
  Class 8 trucks are solved. Volvo, Freightliner and Tesla all make electric semis. They're not a large percentage of the installed base yet but there is nothing that needs to be invented, only adopted, and the latter will pick up as the battery costs continue to decline. Chemical feedstocks are only a small percentage of the petroleum market. The large majority is fuel. If you stop burning it there is plenty of supply and you're not worried about whether you can get any from Iran.
  - OneDonOne 7mo ago
    Not only are electric trucks are unprofitable, it means you switch your dependency from Middle-Eastern fossil fuels to Chinese rare earths. At least we can make biofuels from sugarcane
    - TheTxT 6mo ago
      You don’t burn your batteries though. You build them once and then use them for 20 years. They will just keep working when the next war erupts on the other side of the planet.
    - defrost 6mo ago
      You can also process rare earth concentrates on your own soil, there's no need to offshore that to China and Malaysia other than "No waste ponds in my Backyard".
    - AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
      Electric trucks already have a lower TCO than diesel trucks. LFP batteries don't even contain rare earths.

gpm 7mo ago

> Class 8 trucks Half of the "heavy duty vehicles" (which I believe is roughly similar to the classification you are using) sold in China in December were electric. Between rapidly improving batteries and maturing technology for swapping batteries as a refuelling strategy electrification of trucks is the obvious and inevitable future. They are simply cheaper to operate.

OneDonOne 7mo ago
Good for the Chinese. The rest of us do not have the upfront capital to purchase these trucks. And there is still the matter of fertilizer, concrete, bulk chemicals etc. And solar panels. There is a very good reason why solar psnel factories (like JinkoSolar run off coal or hydro and not solar power.
- jemmyw 7mo ago
  > The rest of us do not have the upfront capital to purchase these trucks. We can afford what we can do. We don't need to do what we can afford. If we wanted to build and deploy electric trucks enmasse like China then we could do it, regardless of upfront capital.
  - coffeebeqn 6mo ago
    Right the US lacks capital for tech investment..
    - wookmaster 6mo ago
      not sure lacks is the correct word...
- rickydroll 7mo ago
  That's one of the wonderful things about automotive infrastructure. You can make gradual incremental changes and slowly improve the entire system. It may not be fast enough or cheap enough, but you can still make it happen.
- 7mo ago

triceratops 7mo ago

If electricity is cheap enough you can synthesize hydrocarbons. For aviation, and shipping, and even trucking if EVs and trains can't do it.