4 ms·

From a quick look, I can't find a reason. why? Even MS doesn't fully believe in Maui, as it seems they reblessed WPF. For Avalonia to do the work of MS seems we

From a quick look, I can't find a reason. why? Even MS doesn't fully believe in Maui, as it seems they reblessed WPF. For Avalonia to do the work of MS seems weird, their own free regular WPF-like Avalonia UI toolkit is already the standard for cross desktop development. I was looking for the line: Microsoft sponsored us. Even then I would not understand why they would spend effort on a doomed project. I know Avalonia being a small company has a big task ahead of porting Avalonia UI to Wayland, which makes porting MS semi-abandonware all the more confusing. But since these people aren't idiots, I gladly assume I am missing something.

nobodyandproud 7mo ago
> But since these people aren't idiots, I gladly assume I am missing something. Microsoft politics. Someone who’s aware please confirm but I want to say it’s something like… Different orgs jockey for power and you can see when the wrong orgs and initiatives influence different products. What I can’t tell is whether it’s established teams scrambling to stay relevant. Or if it’s new teams and products imposing their influence where they shouldn’t. But the Windows team doesn’t want to see Linux get traction, so they’ll do their part to hamper any OS shims or any native-first functions in Office. The Office org wants to expand beyond Windows but for political reasons, the only add-in tech without platform lock-in is JS so they ally with the Azure/Cloud team to allow third parties to create add-ins. Because of this partnership, rather than making a streamlined add-in store, publishers are required to learn the full complexities of Entra and the Partner centers. I imagine the UX and .NET orgs are caught in similar political battles; but without any direct income or product to influence. If I had to guess, they were in the Windows team at one point; but with the platform-independent initiatives (good) it’s been a shitshow over the past 20+ years for desktop developers (bad).
- exceptione 7mo ago
  I agree that MS has often internal conflicts of interest. But that still leaves su with the question: why would Avalalonia do the work that MS did not bother to do, where is the benefit? I mean, Avalonia has AvaloniaUI already.
  - orthoxerox 7mo ago
    Step 1: "use Avalonia to run your existing MAUI or WPF applications on any platform!" Step 2: "now that your devs have seen how good Avalonia is, why not use it in your future projects directly? It's our core business, so we won't do a regular rug-pull like MS"
- pjmlp 7mo ago
  .NET belongs to DevDiv, which is under Azure and AI. Notice how many languages DevDiv supports nowadays, see languages dropdown on https://devblogs.microsoft.com https://devblogs.microsoft.com. Thus even .NET has to fight for internal relevance, most Azure contributions to CNCF are in Go and Rust, they even have a "Rust for C#/.NET Developers" (https://microsoft.github.io/rust-for-dotnet-devs/latest https://microsoft.github.io/rust-for-dotnet-devs/latest) tutorial. Azure is also mostly doing Azure Linux nowadays, even if Azure Host OS is still Windows based.
  - nobodyandproud 7mo ago
    Oh god. So .NET is just one of many frameworks/platforms? And competing with Azure for attention? Talk about being dwarfed.
    - pjmlp 7mo ago
      .NET finally going cross platform (not counting Mono/Xamarin) wasn't only because some folks at Microsoft felt like it, rather a survival decision to get uptake from newer generations, as UNIX/POSIX settled the server room and headless deployments. Except that outside Windows, .NET is only another option among many. Add to it the way cloud infrastructure key offerings are based on, and Azure wanting to play against Google and AWS for first place, naturally the Azure team isn't that focused on being known as the Windows only cloud, as it used to be on the early days. This naturally plays a role in what programming languages they end up adopting. Parallel to it, note how Microsoft also plays a role in Python based tooling nowadays.
      - exceptione 7mo ago
        > a survival decision Do you know if the .net team had they authority to make that decision, or did they need the backing from the Azure team to persuade the top leadership? > Parallel to it, note how Microsoft also plays a role in Python based tooling nowadays. Yes, I do. I feel MS doesn't even know the distinction between "pragmatic" and "negligent" anymore. The last language they ever should push is that non-typesafe, self undefining, non-optimisable, compute wasting language called Python. I know, shouldn't mention it, programming langues and religion... I am sorry in advance, but I think MS given their PL research accolades should show taste and technical judgement, rather than endless go-with-the-flow pragmatism.
siwatanejo 7mo ago
> Even MS doesn't fully believe in Maui Source: I made it up.
- nobodyandproud 7mo ago
  How many MS products are dog fooding Maui? When COM rolled out, every product was very much on board. The need for Maui in-house is for…what?
  - skeeter2020 7mo ago
    doesn't look like much; the seem to use electron for almost everything in this space. If they had faith in Maui something (VS Code, Teams, Outlook, ... calculator?) would use it.
- exceptione 7mo ago
  MS has multiple personalities, so some might do, I will give you that. Meanwhile, WPF is getting rehabilitated. It seems like that not only the average developer has concluded that all the other UI frameworks since wpf are half-baked. Someone more involved than me makes the same assessment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47480056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47480056 I recommend everyone to ignore all experiments, and go straight for AvaloniaUI, as it is quite similar to wpf, actively devloped and cross-platform. The only downside I see is that Wayland is still in progress yet.
- cjbgkagh 7mo ago
  Some of us have insider connections
- array_key_first 7mo ago
  MS doesn't believe in any of their toolkits, and the source is their actions. First off, they're addicting to introducing new toolkits instead of improving existing ones. But that doesn't even matter, because they just use Electron anyway.
- smackeyacky 7mo ago
corstian 7mo ago
Between MAUI and Avalonia, Avalonia is the superior framework when it comes to technical quality as well as community response. What Avalonia doesn't have is the enterprise component libraries MAUI has. As part of this move Avalonia is about to reel in these libraries, as well as a whole bunch of MAUI teams. In other words; Avalonia is coming for MAUIs turf.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- pjmlp 7mo ago
  It actually has the enterprise component libraries that WPF has, and those are much more, and still it isn't as if those will magically work on GNU/Linux, due to how Component One, Telerik and co implement them.

nobodyandproud 7mo ago

> But since these people aren't idiots, I gladly assume I am missing something. Microsoft politics. Someone who’s aware please confirm but I want to say it’s something like… Different orgs jockey for power and you can see when the wrong orgs and initiatives influence different products. What I can’t tell is whether it’s established teams scrambling to stay relevant. Or if it’s new teams and products imposing their influence where they shouldn’t. But the Windows team doesn’t want to see Linux get traction, so they’ll do their part to hamper any OS shims or any native-first functions in Office. The Office org wants to expand beyond Windows but for political reasons, the only add-in tech without platform lock-in is JS so they ally with the Azure/Cloud team to allow third parties to create add-ins. Because of this partnership, rather than making a streamlined add-in store, publishers are required to learn the full complexities of Entra and the Partner centers. I imagine the UX and .NET orgs are caught in similar political battles; but without any direct income or product to influence. If I had to guess, they were in the Windows team at one point; but with the platform-independent initiatives (good) it’s been a shitshow over the past 20+ years for desktop developers (bad).

exceptione 7mo ago
I agree that MS has often internal conflicts of interest. But that still leaves su with the question: why would Avalalonia do the work that MS did not bother to do, where is the benefit? I mean, Avalonia has AvaloniaUI already.
- orthoxerox 7mo ago
  Step 1: "use Avalonia to run your existing MAUI or WPF applications on any platform!" Step 2: "now that your devs have seen how good Avalonia is, why not use it in your future projects directly? It's our core business, so we won't do a regular rug-pull like MS"
pjmlp 7mo ago
.NET belongs to DevDiv, which is under Azure and AI. Notice how many languages DevDiv supports nowadays, see languages dropdown on https://devblogs.microsoft.com https://devblogs.microsoft.com. Thus even .NET has to fight for internal relevance, most Azure contributions to CNCF are in Go and Rust, they even have a "Rust for C#/.NET Developers" (https://microsoft.github.io/rust-for-dotnet-devs/latest https://microsoft.github.io/rust-for-dotnet-devs/latest) tutorial. Azure is also mostly doing Azure Linux nowadays, even if Azure Host OS is still Windows based.
- nobodyandproud 7mo ago
  Oh god. So .NET is just one of many frameworks/platforms? And competing with Azure for attention? Talk about being dwarfed.
  - pjmlp 7mo ago
    .NET finally going cross platform (not counting Mono/Xamarin) wasn't only because some folks at Microsoft felt like it, rather a survival decision to get uptake from newer generations, as UNIX/POSIX settled the server room and headless deployments. Except that outside Windows, .NET is only another option among many. Add to it the way cloud infrastructure key offerings are based on, and Azure wanting to play against Google and AWS for first place, naturally the Azure team isn't that focused on being known as the Windows only cloud, as it used to be on the early days. This naturally plays a role in what programming languages they end up adopting. Parallel to it, note how Microsoft also plays a role in Python based tooling nowadays.
    - exceptione 7mo ago
      > a survival decision Do you know if the .net team had they authority to make that decision, or did they need the backing from the Azure team to persuade the top leadership? > Parallel to it, note how Microsoft also plays a role in Python based tooling nowadays. Yes, I do. I feel MS doesn't even know the distinction between "pragmatic" and "negligent" anymore. The last language they ever should push is that non-typesafe, self undefining, non-optimisable, compute wasting language called Python. I know, shouldn't mention it, programming langues and religion... I am sorry in advance, but I think MS given their PL research accolades should show taste and technical judgement, rather than endless go-with-the-flow pragmatism.

siwatanejo 7mo ago

> Even MS doesn't fully believe in Maui Source: I made it up.

nobodyandproud 7mo ago
How many MS products are dog fooding Maui? When COM rolled out, every product was very much on board. The need for Maui in-house is for…what?
- skeeter2020 7mo ago
  doesn't look like much; the seem to use electron for almost everything in this space. If they had faith in Maui something (VS Code, Teams, Outlook, ... calculator?) would use it.
exceptione 7mo ago
MS has multiple personalities, so some might do, I will give you that. Meanwhile, WPF is getting rehabilitated. It seems like that not only the average developer has concluded that all the other UI frameworks since wpf are half-baked. Someone more involved than me makes the same assessment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47480056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47480056 I recommend everyone to ignore all experiments, and go straight for AvaloniaUI, as it is quite similar to wpf, actively devloped and cross-platform. The only downside I see is that Wayland is still in progress yet.
cjbgkagh 7mo ago
Some of us have insider connections
array_key_first 7mo ago
MS doesn't believe in any of their toolkits, and the source is their actions. First off, they're addicting to introducing new toolkits instead of improving existing ones. But that doesn't even matter, because they just use Electron anyway.
smackeyacky 7mo ago

corstian 7mo ago

Between MAUI and Avalonia, Avalonia is the superior framework when it comes to technical quality as well as community response. What Avalonia doesn't have is the enterprise component libraries MAUI has. As part of this move Avalonia is about to reel in these libraries, as well as a whole bunch of MAUI teams. In other words; Avalonia is coming for MAUIs turf.

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 7mo ago
It actually has the enterprise component libraries that WPF has, and those are much more, and still it isn't as if those will magically work on GNU/Linux, due to how Component One, Telerik and co implement them.