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>Even so, conflating "Safari is holding the web platform back by not implementing standardized web features" with "Safari is holding the Google platform back by

by leptons 7mo ago

>Even so, conflating "Safari is holding the web platform back by not implementing standardized web features" with "Safari is holding the Google platform back by not implementing non-standard Google features" is kind of disingenuous. You missed the point completely. Apple >forbids< any browser engine on iOS other than their own Safari. So you can't just install Chrome on iOS, because when you do you get Safari instead. I would not care how Apple cripples their own web browser if they didn't force other browsers on iOS to use their browser engine. They are forcing me to write a native app instead of just tell my customers to install Chrome to have access to the APIs my product needs (web bluetooth). I am not an iOS app developer, I'm a web developer. I don't have the resources to support that kind of code when I already have a perfectly working web app on the competing platform. I also do not plan to sell anything through my webapp, which is why Apple wants to force developers to create a native app, where they can collect 30% (or whatever % it is now) of anything sold through the app. It doesn't matter what the standards are or aren't. Apple are just being greedy assholes and what they are doing is absolutely worse than what Microsoft did to get sued in an antitrust case when they simply bundled IE in Windows. And to make it worse, Apple is on the board that decides what standards get into W3C, so they are blocking useful APIs based on their own greed. This is part of the reason Apple is currently being sued by the DOJ https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

burnerthrow008 7mo ago
> They are forcing me to write a native app instead of just tell my customers to install Chrome to have access to the APIs my product needs (web bluetooth). Why don’t you encourage them to get an Android? What makes you think that people who prefer an iOS device over Android would even install Chrome after you nag them with dark patterns? > I also do not plan to sell anything through my webapp, which is why Apple wants to force developers to create a native app, where they can collect 30% (or whatever % it is now) of anything sold through the app. Sorry, not following you: Apple is forcing you to give them 30% of nothing? How exactly is that a problem? > Apple are just being greedy assholes and what they are doing is absolutely worse than what Microsoft did to get sued in an antitrust case when they simply bundled IE in Windows. Yes, how dare Apple look after their [checks notes] customers by preventing devs from using the features that would most annoy their customers?!? Such a greedy thing for a company to do, to give customers what they want! The only true purpose of a company ought to make it easy to slurp up customer data and monetize eyeballs!
- jasonlotito 7mo ago
  > What makes you think that people who prefer an iOS device over Android would even install Firefox 100% guaranteed people would. I know this for a fact. You somehow have proof of the negative for some reason. Maybe you can share that. Regardless, just because you are satisfied with iOS as a platform doesn't mean others don't continue to wish for improvements. Can I ask which version of iOS was perfect in our mind?
  - genthree 7mo ago
    > Can I ask which version of iOS was perfect in our mind? 6.
  - ymolodtsov 7mo ago
    What fact? Have you checked Firefox's market share even on desktop?
    - jasonlotito 7mo ago
      That people would use Firefox on iOS. That fact. Do you know English? It seems like you understood what I said, but still had a hard time comprehending it. Are you okay?
mort96 7mo ago
Mobile safari is arguably the only thing standing between Google and total browser dominance. It's the reason why Google "only" has roughly 75% of the mobile browser market even though it has a 90% market share in desktop. I'm principally against the idea that Apple can prevent users from installing the software they want on their own devices, but we can't deny that it's better for the health of the web. Anyway, if you want to exclusively argue "Users should be able to install the browser they want", that's fine. But you're not; both your comment and the pwa.gripe page brings up how Apple is "crippling" their own web browser. Since you use the same wording as pwa.gripe, I assume you too view the lack of non-standard Google-only features as "crippling mobile Safari". I disagree.
- archerx 7mo ago
  You clearly haven’t tried to design anything complicated that has to run on safari iOS. Safari iOS is a massive piece of shit. I’ve been working on a web game for a while now using canvas and most of my pain comes from making it compatible with safari. So much stuff is broken on safari so you have to find work arounds. Like a simple but annoying one, CSS filters don’t work on canvas so you have to write all those filters your self and apply them by using imgData. Also the constant crashing when using canvas and the web audio api, it’s a disaster to be honest and it feels intentional, like they want me to write an app instead so they can rent seek.
  - mort96 7mo ago
    The argument which has been provided so far about why Safari is crippled is that it does not implement non-standard Chromium-only features. There are other problems with Safari, but they are not found in the page we are discussing.
    - rejhgadellaa 7mo ago
      I compiled a "short" list of why amd how Safari is crippled. Not entirely on topic for the post, but seems appropriate as a reply on this particular comment ;) https://webventures.rejh.nl/blog/2024/history-of-safari-show-stoppers https://webventures.rejh.nl/blog/2024/history-of-safari-show...
raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
Guess what? You not having the resources to have anything but a shitty PWA is not my problem. Do you really think that you are going to get any level of monetization by forcing users to first download a hypothetical web browser that has all of the features you want? That web browser doesn’t exist on any mobile platform
- leptons 7mo ago
  You have no idea what my web application is, or whether it is shitty or not. So thanks for the troll - it reminds of my days on reddit, but now this pointless internet interaction is over.
  - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
    A web app has never in history been as performant as a native app.
    - leptons 7mo ago
      Not everything needs to be at the highest high of "performant", and you're ridiculous to use that as a gotcha. I told you, this pointless internet interaction is over. You are not here to argue in good faith, so take it somewhere else.
      - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
        So yet another shitty bloated web app…
        leptons 7mo ago
        this pointless internet interaction is over
jen20 7mo ago
As an iOS user, I’m quite happy you have to jump through these hoops instead of being able to force me to use a Google product.
ymolodtsov 7mo ago
You can still build a PWA and get most of the benefits (I use a few PWAs on my iPhone daily). Or you can package it through Expo and rely on the Reader app exception without letting users sign up on iOS (although the rules around that are changing and you might be able to). I get the gist of the article but what specific features do you need to let people just use your app as a PWA on iOS? Do you need access to the NFC, for instance?
- leptons 7mo ago
  I need web bluetooth to give users the full experience. They can use most of my platform currently on Safari, but not the really cool stuff that web bluetooth enables.

by leptons 7mo ago

burnerthrow008 7mo ago

> They are forcing me to write a native app instead of just tell my customers to install Chrome to have access to the APIs my product needs (web bluetooth). Why don’t you encourage them to get an Android? What makes you think that people who prefer an iOS device over Android would even install Chrome after you nag them with dark patterns? > I also do not plan to sell anything through my webapp, which is why Apple wants to force developers to create a native app, where they can collect 30% (or whatever % it is now) of anything sold through the app. Sorry, not following you: Apple is forcing you to give them 30% of nothing? How exactly is that a problem? > Apple are just being greedy assholes and what they are doing is absolutely worse than what Microsoft did to get sued in an antitrust case when they simply bundled IE in Windows. Yes, how dare Apple look after their [checks notes] customers by preventing devs from using the features that would most annoy their customers?!? Such a greedy thing for a company to do, to give customers what they want! The only true purpose of a company ought to make it easy to slurp up customer data and monetize eyeballs!

jasonlotito 7mo ago
> What makes you think that people who prefer an iOS device over Android would even install Firefox 100% guaranteed people would. I know this for a fact. You somehow have proof of the negative for some reason. Maybe you can share that. Regardless, just because you are satisfied with iOS as a platform doesn't mean others don't continue to wish for improvements. Can I ask which version of iOS was perfect in our mind?
- genthree 7mo ago
  > Can I ask which version of iOS was perfect in our mind? 6.
- ymolodtsov 7mo ago
  What fact? Have you checked Firefox's market share even on desktop?
  - jasonlotito 7mo ago
    That people would use Firefox on iOS. That fact. Do you know English? It seems like you understood what I said, but still had a hard time comprehending it. Are you okay?

mort96 7mo ago

Mobile safari is arguably the only thing standing between Google and total browser dominance. It's the reason why Google "only" has roughly 75% of the mobile browser market even though it has a 90% market share in desktop. I'm principally against the idea that Apple can prevent users from installing the software they want on their own devices, but we can't deny that it's better for the health of the web. Anyway, if you want to exclusively argue "Users should be able to install the browser they want", that's fine. But you're not; both your comment and the pwa.gripe page brings up how Apple is "crippling" their own web browser. Since you use the same wording as pwa.gripe, I assume you too view the lack of non-standard Google-only features as "crippling mobile Safari". I disagree.

archerx 7mo ago
You clearly haven’t tried to design anything complicated that has to run on safari iOS. Safari iOS is a massive piece of shit. I’ve been working on a web game for a while now using canvas and most of my pain comes from making it compatible with safari. So much stuff is broken on safari so you have to find work arounds. Like a simple but annoying one, CSS filters don’t work on canvas so you have to write all those filters your self and apply them by using imgData. Also the constant crashing when using canvas and the web audio api, it’s a disaster to be honest and it feels intentional, like they want me to write an app instead so they can rent seek.
- mort96 7mo ago
  The argument which has been provided so far about why Safari is crippled is that it does not implement non-standard Chromium-only features. There are other problems with Safari, but they are not found in the page we are discussing.
  - rejhgadellaa 7mo ago
    I compiled a "short" list of why amd how Safari is crippled. Not entirely on topic for the post, but seems appropriate as a reply on this particular comment ;) https://webventures.rejh.nl/blog/2024/history-of-safari-show-stoppers https://webventures.rejh.nl/blog/2024/history-of-safari-show...

raw_anon_1111 7mo ago

Guess what? You not having the resources to have anything but a shitty PWA is not my problem. Do you really think that you are going to get any level of monetization by forcing users to first download a hypothetical web browser that has all of the features you want? That web browser doesn’t exist on any mobile platform

leptons 7mo ago
You have no idea what my web application is, or whether it is shitty or not. So thanks for the troll - it reminds of my days on reddit, but now this pointless internet interaction is over.
- raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
  A web app has never in history been as performant as a native app.
  - leptons 7mo ago
    Not everything needs to be at the highest high of "performant", and you're ridiculous to use that as a gotcha. I told you, this pointless internet interaction is over. You are not here to argue in good faith, so take it somewhere else.
    - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
      So yet another shitty bloated web app…
      - leptons 7mo ago
        this pointless internet interaction is over

jen20 7mo ago

As an iOS user, I’m quite happy you have to jump through these hoops instead of being able to force me to use a Google product.

ymolodtsov 7mo ago

You can still build a PWA and get most of the benefits (I use a few PWAs on my iPhone daily). Or you can package it through Expo and rely on the Reader app exception without letting users sign up on iOS (although the rules around that are changing and you might be able to). I get the gist of the article but what specific features do you need to let people just use your app as a PWA on iOS? Do you need access to the NFC, for instance?

leptons 7mo ago
I need web bluetooth to give users the full experience. They can use most of my platform currently on Safari, but not the really cool stuff that web bluetooth enables.