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I'm writing this in Safari now, I'm a huge fan. There are several "features" that I actively dislike and disable in other browsers. I wonder if not being imple

by hx8 7mo ago

I'm writing this in Safari now, I'm a huge fan. There are several "features" that I actively dislike and disable in other browsers. I wonder if not being implemented in mobile safari is preventing them from being required in some webpages. * Vibration * Background Sync * Bluetooth * NFC * Notifications * Web Push

traceroute66 7mo ago
Same here. The first thing I do when I install a browser on my desktop is block all that crap in the privacy settings of the browser.
notatoad 7mo ago
I can understand notifications and vibration. But why not Bluetooth or NFC? I can’t imagine any way those could be annoyances, or even why websites would want them outside of some extremely specialized applications.
- kg 7mo ago
  I'm personally a WebUSB, WebBT etc hater but I totally get why PWA developers want those features. For example, let's say you're manufacturing some sort of USB device and you need a way to flash drivers. The idea of being able to just make a webpage that can update your drivers is so appealing compared to having to ship apps on Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS and Android. Similarly, if my bank website could do NFC tap-to-pay securely, that would be pretty cool. I can imagine lots of interesting opt-in uses for NFC in a webapp. Arguments that these features are held back by Apple specifically in order to keep apps on the app store where they can control things and take 30% at least hold water, I think, even if that reasoning doesn't apply to Mozilla rejecting features.
  - traceroute66 7mo ago
    > The idea of being able to just make a webpage that can update your drivers is so appealing compared to having to ship apps on Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS and Android. I suspect like many here, at $work we use a shit-ton of Flexoptix SFPs. Flexoptix are not a $megacorp, they are a (very) small German company. They manage to ship cross-platform apps to flash the SFPs. So its really not that difficult. I would think a web app would be more of a pain the the butt to maintain because you have to deal with CSS reactive UI etc.
    - genthree 7mo ago
      For little utility apps where you don’t care to deviate from UI default appearance and behavior (and, as a user, it’s much better if you don’t anyway, though it’s very trendy to make UX worse by customizing everything) iOS and Android both are dead simple, very easy to write and maintain a utility app for either of them. An enormous amount of the cost of developing a lot of native apps is customizing the appearance and behavior, to match some slide deck mockup or to make it “on-brand” or whatever. It’s better for the user, and way cheaper, if you just… don’t do that. Hell a lot of common UI elements are easier in native than web if you just don’t try to customize them a ton (data-backed tables and list views and such are sooooo nice)
      - skydhash 7mo ago
        I don't know much about Win32, but GTK, QT, Cocoa (Apple),... have nice customization options, and creating custom components is easy.
  - kstrauser 7mo ago
    I like WebUSB in Chrome to update my Meshtastic radios. I also like that I have to go out of my way to launch Chrome for that, and other websites can’t request permission to access local hardware in my normal browser.
- mvanbaak 7mo ago
  BT and (although very very limited) NFC can be used for tracking and location detection.
- eipi10_hn 7mo ago
  Read Firefox' stance of these APIs about users' privacy. Chromium gives 0 sh*t about users' privacy, and just pump the APIs out for websites to track their users more easily.
  - fennecfoxy 7mo ago
    Nonsense. Firefox on Android (and I'm sure everywhere else) allows endless redirects without prompting me about the redirect, sending me to sites I never wanted to go to. And even then, where does one draw the line on "privacy"? Especially given that every other app on the user's phone is granted every permission under the sun and feeding on as much data as possible. The core of the problem isn't supporting web bluetooth etc or not...the core of the problem is that dumbass humans will go "yes use all the permissions" because their hands are already shaking from tiktok withdrawal.
sethops1 7mo ago
Yeah, I see that list of disabled features as being a feature in and of itself.
internet2000 7mo ago
Agree and I’d add WebUSB and WebMIDI. Want to interface with USB? Go through the OS.
- Lio 7mo ago
  I’m not sure why web-midi can’t be available behind a permission to control finger printing. I can think of several light weight patch editors I’d like be able to use. There’s probably not enough demand for someone to make a stand alone app for them. I can’t see any reason why this needs to be controlled by apple’s app store.
- gertop 7mo ago
  WebUSB is incredibly useful to flash firmware and update configuration on random devices. The alternative is to install random software on your computer for every device (or, if you're a Linux user, you'll likely simply be excluded and whine about it).
  - kalleboo 7mo ago
    Making device companion utilities WebUSB means that when the hardware maker goes belly-up and their site goes down, or just decides to stop supporting a device, it's now a brick. When they are native software programs, someone can preserve them. Just look at all the old hardware like CNC machines still running just fine on old computers, and imagine if they were connected via WebUSB instead. WebUSB is just a terrible idea if you're not an ad company.
    - fennecfoxy 7mo ago
      WebUSB/Bluetooth/NFC/PWAs are an excellent idea. Not if it's an Open Source project made by a bunch of people for the love of the game. Install a PWA and you have it even when the site is down, if not code available on GH. It's possible to do on a computer (write code and distribute an app not via an app store)...but not in the magical protected-profits land of mobile devices. Your way of thinking is the reason why we now have a half dozen trillion dollar companies controlling the world.
8organicbits 7mo ago
Notifications struck me as odd. I aggressively disable notifications in my apps because they are often just ads or engagement focused. But as a developer, it would be cool to have a way to notify an iOS user other than building a native app and paying the iOS tax. There's a bunch of utility apps not getting built because of this limitation.
- kmeisthax 7mo ago
  iOS actually does support notifications in webapps, but only ones that have a homescreen icon. Furthermore, the notification support is different enough that I can't get my iPad to work with Android Messages for Web. So I have no clue if the API is neutered or if Google is being Google and insisting every browser be Chromium. Probably both.
- lachlan_gray 7mo ago
  According to this, notifications are possible if you add the app to the home screen, which I didn't know. A feature more devs should use- I've been surprised how much websites behave like native apps if you just "add to homescreen" instead of downloading an official app, e.g. twitter, instagram. When you open the shortcut, it doesn't launch as a tab in safari, but appears independently in the app switcher. They are often indistinguishable from official apps! Seems like a great way for devs to avoid app store pains
  - xd1936 7mo ago
    This experience is exactly why PWAs could be great.
mrweasel 7mo ago
Looking down the list I can find more features that I'd like to yank out of Safari, and Chrome, than features I'd like to see added. Things that should be removed, according to me: * Audio recording * Geolocation * Motion * Media capture
- leptons 7mo ago
  You have to explicitly allow all of those features to work in a webpage, they aren't on by default, so I'm not sure what you're worrying about.
  - mrweasel 7mo ago
    > so I'm not sure what you're worrying about. Complexity primarily.
    - leptons 7mo ago
      Complexity for who? The user having to click "Yes I want to enable Web Bluetooth for this website"? Or for the developers? Because if it's for the developers, it's literally their job to make complex things simple for users.
- gertop 7mo ago
  You're right, nobody uses video conferencing in a browser. let's kill it!

by hx8 7mo ago

traceroute66 7mo ago

Same here. The first thing I do when I install a browser on my desktop is block all that crap in the privacy settings of the browser.

notatoad 7mo ago

I can understand notifications and vibration. But why not Bluetooth or NFC? I can’t imagine any way those could be annoyances, or even why websites would want them outside of some extremely specialized applications.

kg 7mo ago
I'm personally a WebUSB, WebBT etc hater but I totally get why PWA developers want those features. For example, let's say you're manufacturing some sort of USB device and you need a way to flash drivers. The idea of being able to just make a webpage that can update your drivers is so appealing compared to having to ship apps on Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS and Android. Similarly, if my bank website could do NFC tap-to-pay securely, that would be pretty cool. I can imagine lots of interesting opt-in uses for NFC in a webapp. Arguments that these features are held back by Apple specifically in order to keep apps on the app store where they can control things and take 30% at least hold water, I think, even if that reasoning doesn't apply to Mozilla rejecting features.
- traceroute66 7mo ago
  > The idea of being able to just make a webpage that can update your drivers is so appealing compared to having to ship apps on Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS and Android. I suspect like many here, at $work we use a shit-ton of Flexoptix SFPs. Flexoptix are not a $megacorp, they are a (very) small German company. They manage to ship cross-platform apps to flash the SFPs. So its really not that difficult. I would think a web app would be more of a pain the the butt to maintain because you have to deal with CSS reactive UI etc.
  - genthree 7mo ago
    For little utility apps where you don’t care to deviate from UI default appearance and behavior (and, as a user, it’s much better if you don’t anyway, though it’s very trendy to make UX worse by customizing everything) iOS and Android both are dead simple, very easy to write and maintain a utility app for either of them. An enormous amount of the cost of developing a lot of native apps is customizing the appearance and behavior, to match some slide deck mockup or to make it “on-brand” or whatever. It’s better for the user, and way cheaper, if you just… don’t do that. Hell a lot of common UI elements are easier in native than web if you just don’t try to customize them a ton (data-backed tables and list views and such are sooooo nice)
    - skydhash 7mo ago
      I don't know much about Win32, but GTK, QT, Cocoa (Apple),... have nice customization options, and creating custom components is easy.
- kstrauser 7mo ago
  I like WebUSB in Chrome to update my Meshtastic radios. I also like that I have to go out of my way to launch Chrome for that, and other websites can’t request permission to access local hardware in my normal browser.
mvanbaak 7mo ago
BT and (although very very limited) NFC can be used for tracking and location detection.
eipi10_hn 7mo ago
Read Firefox' stance of these APIs about users' privacy. Chromium gives 0 sh*t about users' privacy, and just pump the APIs out for websites to track their users more easily.
- fennecfoxy 7mo ago
  Nonsense. Firefox on Android (and I'm sure everywhere else) allows endless redirects without prompting me about the redirect, sending me to sites I never wanted to go to. And even then, where does one draw the line on "privacy"? Especially given that every other app on the user's phone is granted every permission under the sun and feeding on as much data as possible. The core of the problem isn't supporting web bluetooth etc or not...the core of the problem is that dumbass humans will go "yes use all the permissions" because their hands are already shaking from tiktok withdrawal.

sethops1 7mo ago

Yeah, I see that list of disabled features as being a feature in and of itself.

internet2000 7mo ago

Agree and I’d add WebUSB and WebMIDI. Want to interface with USB? Go through the OS.

Lio 7mo ago
I’m not sure why web-midi can’t be available behind a permission to control finger printing. I can think of several light weight patch editors I’d like be able to use. There’s probably not enough demand for someone to make a stand alone app for them. I can’t see any reason why this needs to be controlled by apple’s app store.
gertop 7mo ago
WebUSB is incredibly useful to flash firmware and update configuration on random devices. The alternative is to install random software on your computer for every device (or, if you're a Linux user, you'll likely simply be excluded and whine about it).
- kalleboo 7mo ago
  Making device companion utilities WebUSB means that when the hardware maker goes belly-up and their site goes down, or just decides to stop supporting a device, it's now a brick. When they are native software programs, someone can preserve them. Just look at all the old hardware like CNC machines still running just fine on old computers, and imagine if they were connected via WebUSB instead. WebUSB is just a terrible idea if you're not an ad company.
  - fennecfoxy 7mo ago
    WebUSB/Bluetooth/NFC/PWAs are an excellent idea. Not if it's an Open Source project made by a bunch of people for the love of the game. Install a PWA and you have it even when the site is down, if not code available on GH. It's possible to do on a computer (write code and distribute an app not via an app store)...but not in the magical protected-profits land of mobile devices. Your way of thinking is the reason why we now have a half dozen trillion dollar companies controlling the world.

8organicbits 7mo ago

Notifications struck me as odd. I aggressively disable notifications in my apps because they are often just ads or engagement focused. But as a developer, it would be cool to have a way to notify an iOS user other than building a native app and paying the iOS tax. There's a bunch of utility apps not getting built because of this limitation.

kmeisthax 7mo ago
iOS actually does support notifications in webapps, but only ones that have a homescreen icon. Furthermore, the notification support is different enough that I can't get my iPad to work with Android Messages for Web. So I have no clue if the API is neutered or if Google is being Google and insisting every browser be Chromium. Probably both.
lachlan_gray 7mo ago
According to this, notifications are possible if you add the app to the home screen, which I didn't know. A feature more devs should use- I've been surprised how much websites behave like native apps if you just "add to homescreen" instead of downloading an official app, e.g. twitter, instagram. When you open the shortcut, it doesn't launch as a tab in safari, but appears independently in the app switcher. They are often indistinguishable from official apps! Seems like a great way for devs to avoid app store pains
- xd1936 7mo ago
  This experience is exactly why PWAs could be great.

mrweasel 7mo ago

Looking down the list I can find more features that I'd like to yank out of Safari, and Chrome, than features I'd like to see added. Things that should be removed, according to me: * Audio recording * Geolocation * Motion * Media capture

leptons 7mo ago
You have to explicitly allow all of those features to work in a webpage, they aren't on by default, so I'm not sure what you're worrying about.
- mrweasel 7mo ago
  > so I'm not sure what you're worrying about. Complexity primarily.
  - leptons 7mo ago
    Complexity for who? The user having to click "Yes I want to enable Web Bluetooth for this website"? Or for the developers? Because if it's for the developers, it's literally their job to make complex things simple for users.
gertop 7mo ago
You're right, nobody uses video conferencing in a browser. let's kill it!