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Fantastic write up! And we're seeing rust happily going down the same path, especially with the micro packages.

by skydhash 7mo ago

cute_boi 7mo ago
Rust is different as there is no runtime.
- onlyspaceghost 7mo ago
  but it still increases compile time, attack surface area, bandwidth use, etc.
- b00ty4breakfast 7mo ago
  I'm not very familiar with rust but I'm pretty sure it has a runtime. Even C has a runtime. Unless you're talking about an "environment" eg Node or the like
  - embedding-shape 7mo ago
    Indeed Rust has a runtime, I'm not sure why the whole "Rust has no runtime" comes from, I keep seeing it repeated from time to time, but can't find the origin of this, I don't think it's ever been true?
    - b00ty4breakfast 7mo ago
      The only thing I can think is that folks are getting confused by stuff like the JRE and Node being called "runtime environments".
- vsgherzi 7mo ago
  I’m assuming you’re referring to an async runtime like tokio. In my option the dependency problem exists with or without tokio. Tokio is probably one of the best dependencies
- wiseowise 7mo ago
  Yes, instead we pay with requiring supercomputers and 10 hour compile times to process billion of those “atomic architecture”.
CoderLuii 7mo ago
the docker side of this is painful too. every extra dependency in any language means a bigger image, more layers to cache, more things that can break during a multi-arch build. ive been building images that are 4GB because of all the node and python tooling bundled in. micro packages make it worse because each one adds metadata overhead on top of the actual code.
vsgherzi 7mo ago
Yeah I’m in the same boat here I really don’t like the dependency sprawl of rust. I understand there’s tradeoffs but I really wanna make sure we don’t end up like npm
chrismorgan 7mo ago
Rust is not going down the same path, and it’s ludicrous to suggest it is. Almost none of the first and third pillars are even possible in Rust, and to the extent they are, they’re not a problem in practice. As for the second, “atomic architecture”, it’s not taken anywhere near the extreme it frequently is with npm. There are not many micro-packages that get used, and where they are, they mostly make more sense than they did in npm, and they don’t have anywhere near the cost they do in npm, and can have some concrete advantages.

Fantastic write up! And we're seeing rust happily going down the same path, especially with the micro packages.

cute_boi 7mo ago

Rust is different as there is no runtime.

onlyspaceghost 7mo ago
but it still increases compile time, attack surface area, bandwidth use, etc.
b00ty4breakfast 7mo ago
I'm not very familiar with rust but I'm pretty sure it has a runtime. Even C has a runtime. Unless you're talking about an "environment" eg Node or the like
- embedding-shape 7mo ago
  Indeed Rust has a runtime, I'm not sure why the whole "Rust has no runtime" comes from, I keep seeing it repeated from time to time, but can't find the origin of this, I don't think it's ever been true?
  - b00ty4breakfast 7mo ago
    The only thing I can think is that folks are getting confused by stuff like the JRE and Node being called "runtime environments".
vsgherzi 7mo ago
I’m assuming you’re referring to an async runtime like tokio. In my option the dependency problem exists with or without tokio. Tokio is probably one of the best dependencies
wiseowise 7mo ago
Yes, instead we pay with requiring supercomputers and 10 hour compile times to process billion of those “atomic architecture”.

CoderLuii 7mo ago

the docker side of this is painful too. every extra dependency in any language means a bigger image, more layers to cache, more things that can break during a multi-arch build. ive been building images that are 4GB because of all the node and python tooling bundled in. micro packages make it worse because each one adds metadata overhead on top of the actual code.

vsgherzi 7mo ago

Yeah I’m in the same boat here I really don’t like the dependency sprawl of rust. I understand there’s tradeoffs but I really wanna make sure we don’t end up like npm

chrismorgan 7mo ago

Rust is not going down the same path, and it’s ludicrous to suggest it is. Almost none of the first and third pillars are even possible in Rust, and to the extent they are, they’re not a problem in practice. As for the second, “atomic architecture”, it’s not taken anywhere near the extreme it frequently is with npm. There are not many micro-packages that get used, and where they are, they mostly make more sense than they did in npm, and they don’t have anywhere near the cost they do in npm, and can have some concrete advantages.