5 ms·

Singapore is a pretty great place. That said, the place is freakishly expensive. I recently looked at Singapore as an option to move there and start up a.. sta

by ashray 14y ago

Singapore is a pretty great place. That said, the place is freakishly expensive. I recently looked at Singapore as an option to move there and start up a.. startup. The entrepass will require $50,000 of paid up capital plus yadda yadda. That is, post company registration: http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/entrepass/before-you-apply/Pages/default.aspx http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/entrepas... Following that, there are quite a few hoops to jump through but the worst part is that they require you to spend $100,000+ per year plus there are milestones regarding hiring singapore nationals within the first two years. Couple that with rents that are in the range of Manhattan housing. It's a bit of a complicated situation for a startup to be in considering that startups are already pretty complicated high risk businesses. Then there's the question of pretty strong programming competition from India. If a startup were to choose between India and Singapore based on costs, market size, etc. then India would be the obvious choice. (ease of business and quality of life in Singapore however is orders of magnitude higher!) I'm absolutely certain that Singapore has great talent available but starting up there needs to be made easier considering the high cost of living. As for home-grown entrepreneurs, maybe the Singapore government should look at a program like Startup Chile that may help foster some innovation locally.

muhfuhkuh 14y ago
I think that Singapore is suffering from almost exactly the same problem as Vancouver, Canada. It's a fantastic city enveloped by the ocean and mountains, has world-class cuisine, and city planning that has a semblance of sanity to most observers. Yet, the young brains are draining en masse for Montreal and Toronto (not to mention California). It doesn't help that Vancouver hasn't bothered to match the aforementioned cities' tax incentives for small and technology businesses (thus the brain drain). And, lately it seems that mainland Chinese are trading their yuan for Vancouver real estate, thus seriously inflating the bubble and pricing everyone who doesn't own an Android phone factory in Chengdu out entirely. Singapore is increasingly being known as a haven for the borderless rich to park their jets and their cash, since the tax climate is the envy of most of the developed world. So, the same situation foments: You can't keep the Creative Class without giving them (affordable) space to live and work and play (which for that class is all the same!)
- jbm 14y ago
  Brain drain to Montreal? I am a bit skeptical that anyone would want to pay Quebec-level taxes, particularly with the recent political issues at play. Could you offer some evidence for this? I'd love to believe it is true (as I am originally from there), but it just rings hollow.
  - muhfuhkuh 14y ago
    Here[1] is a good summary of why Montreal has one of the highest concentrations of tech jobs in N. America. And, while Quebec citizens might have to bear a larger tax burden than other provinces, there are heaps of tax incentives for businesses (especially technology) to startup or relocate there. There are massive SR&ED (Scientific Research and Experimental Development) tax credits and other incentives that can halve or more employee compensation expenditures. Vancouver needs to play tax catchup (while boosting technology sector wages to level out the cost of living playing field). [1]http://www.startuprev.com/archives/2012/10/the-montreal-tech-scene.html http://www.startuprev.com/archives/2012/10/the-montreal-tech...
    - jbm 14y ago
      Thanks! I'll take a gander.
  - ramchip 14y ago
    Quebec has generous tax benefits for R&D work, for one. There are lots of game companies in Montreal using this.
- nahname 14y ago
  I was seriously considering moving to Vancouver from Calgary. It is really hard to find talented, passionate people in Calgary. But even ignoring the lower wages in Vancouver, the cost of housing is a bad joke. My long term plan now is to move to Toronto. Plenty of flourishing tech communities. Industries where technology is a differentiator (Calgary is all cost centre). It is the small things that make a difference. I would love to spend an evening learning something from my peers, rather than presenting beginner level content because most of the audience is stuck using pre-approved MS technologies.
kiba 14y ago
Isn't renting and getting a house in silicon valley quite expensive?
- ashray 14y ago
  Yes, but it's way more worth it with a strong already existing startup ecosystem. It's not going to be fun if you drop a ton of cash on a startup in Singapore and then the government decides to kick you out because you didn't meet their specific milestones.
czcar 14y ago
Hey Ash, been meaning to write a blog post as someone who moved their startup from NZ to Singapore - it's not quite as dire as you supposed. Firstly, I would never recommend anyone to get the Entrepass - best thing to do is just to register a business and apply for an EP pass as an employee of said company. Admittedly in this scenario you would need a local director - but services for this shouldn't run over $1000/annum. The next statement about spending $100,000+ per year, is again - not true if you are on the standard EP pass. Rents for accomodation are, however as you stated expensive, we're currently paying $5400 SGD / month for a 3 bdroom in a nice condo in central Singapore. However, for 2800-3500 / month you can find 3-4 bedroom places that are lacking condo facilities but are more than suitable for living. If you have any additional questions or queries please don't hesitate. Also, don't take this as a glowing endorsement of SG - there are plenty of downsides to this island nation for tech. cam
- ashray 14y ago
  Hey! Thanks so much for your response! I didn't know about the local company + director option. That sounds like a good path to head down. I did read somewhere about the $100,000 per year or maybe per two years + hiring minimum 2 singapore nationals by the end of a year. That, or something similar (I think that's the Q1 pass). These are the guidelines governing entrepass renewal. http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/entrepass/cancellation-renewal/Pages/pass-renewal.aspx http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/entrepas... So yes, the local company option really does look like the way to go! I really love Singapore, went there about 2 years ago and thought of starting a business there (the place is full of opportunity!). I'll definitely hit you up with more questions if I do decide to move there. Thanks so much for offering! :) EDIT: Also, do please write that blog post! There's not a lot of info out there about tech startups in Singapore and it would be interesting to read an insider's perspective.
  - andycroll 14y ago
    The EntrePass thing is a ball of hurt. Initially it was set up with virtually no onerous terms, but they brought in the crazy conditions about 3 years ago. Definitely using a local accountant & director to set up the company and then employ yourself is the best way.
yzhengyu 14y ago
As someone living here for most of his life, yeah, Singapore has become very expensive. Doesn't help that inflation has been around 6% ~ 7% per year. The .gov here has been playing with the exchange rate (rather than interest rates) to help out but it really hasn't really worked out.

by ashray 14y ago

muhfuhkuh 14y ago

I think that Singapore is suffering from almost exactly the same problem as Vancouver, Canada. It's a fantastic city enveloped by the ocean and mountains, has world-class cuisine, and city planning that has a semblance of sanity to most observers. Yet, the young brains are draining en masse for Montreal and Toronto (not to mention California). It doesn't help that Vancouver hasn't bothered to match the aforementioned cities' tax incentives for small and technology businesses (thus the brain drain). And, lately it seems that mainland Chinese are trading their yuan for Vancouver real estate, thus seriously inflating the bubble and pricing everyone who doesn't own an Android phone factory in Chengdu out entirely. Singapore is increasingly being known as a haven for the borderless rich to park their jets and their cash, since the tax climate is the envy of most of the developed world. So, the same situation foments: You can't keep the Creative Class without giving them (affordable) space to live and work and play (which for that class is all the same!)

jbm 14y ago
Brain drain to Montreal? I am a bit skeptical that anyone would want to pay Quebec-level taxes, particularly with the recent political issues at play. Could you offer some evidence for this? I'd love to believe it is true (as I am originally from there), but it just rings hollow.
- muhfuhkuh 14y ago
  Here[1] is a good summary of why Montreal has one of the highest concentrations of tech jobs in N. America. And, while Quebec citizens might have to bear a larger tax burden than other provinces, there are heaps of tax incentives for businesses (especially technology) to startup or relocate there. There are massive SR&ED (Scientific Research and Experimental Development) tax credits and other incentives that can halve or more employee compensation expenditures. Vancouver needs to play tax catchup (while boosting technology sector wages to level out the cost of living playing field). [1]http://www.startuprev.com/archives/2012/10/the-montreal-tech-scene.html http://www.startuprev.com/archives/2012/10/the-montreal-tech...
  - jbm 14y ago
    Thanks! I'll take a gander.
- ramchip 14y ago
  Quebec has generous tax benefits for R&D work, for one. There are lots of game companies in Montreal using this.
nahname 14y ago
I was seriously considering moving to Vancouver from Calgary. It is really hard to find talented, passionate people in Calgary. But even ignoring the lower wages in Vancouver, the cost of housing is a bad joke. My long term plan now is to move to Toronto. Plenty of flourishing tech communities. Industries where technology is a differentiator (Calgary is all cost centre). It is the small things that make a difference. I would love to spend an evening learning something from my peers, rather than presenting beginner level content because most of the audience is stuck using pre-approved MS technologies.

kiba 14y ago

Isn't renting and getting a house in silicon valley quite expensive?

ashray 14y ago
Yes, but it's way more worth it with a strong already existing startup ecosystem. It's not going to be fun if you drop a ton of cash on a startup in Singapore and then the government decides to kick you out because you didn't meet their specific milestones.

czcar 14y ago

Hey Ash, been meaning to write a blog post as someone who moved their startup from NZ to Singapore - it's not quite as dire as you supposed. Firstly, I would never recommend anyone to get the Entrepass - best thing to do is just to register a business and apply for an EP pass as an employee of said company. Admittedly in this scenario you would need a local director - but services for this shouldn't run over $1000/annum. The next statement about spending $100,000+ per year, is again - not true if you are on the standard EP pass. Rents for accomodation are, however as you stated expensive, we're currently paying $5400 SGD / month for a 3 bdroom in a nice condo in central Singapore. However, for 2800-3500 / month you can find 3-4 bedroom places that are lacking condo facilities but are more than suitable for living. If you have any additional questions or queries please don't hesitate. Also, don't take this as a glowing endorsement of SG - there are plenty of downsides to this island nation for tech. cam

ashray 14y ago
Hey! Thanks so much for your response! I didn't know about the local company + director option. That sounds like a good path to head down. I did read somewhere about the $100,000 per year or maybe per two years + hiring minimum 2 singapore nationals by the end of a year. That, or something similar (I think that's the Q1 pass). These are the guidelines governing entrepass renewal. http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/entrepass/cancellation-renewal/Pages/pass-renewal.aspx http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/entrepas... So yes, the local company option really does look like the way to go! I really love Singapore, went there about 2 years ago and thought of starting a business there (the place is full of opportunity!). I'll definitely hit you up with more questions if I do decide to move there. Thanks so much for offering! :) EDIT: Also, do please write that blog post! There's not a lot of info out there about tech startups in Singapore and it would be interesting to read an insider's perspective.
- andycroll 14y ago
  The EntrePass thing is a ball of hurt. Initially it was set up with virtually no onerous terms, but they brought in the crazy conditions about 3 years ago. Definitely using a local accountant & director to set up the company and then employ yourself is the best way.

yzhengyu 14y ago

As someone living here for most of his life, yeah, Singapore has become very expensive. Doesn't help that inflation has been around 6% ~ 7% per year. The .gov here has been playing with the exchange rate (rather than interest rates) to help out but it really hasn't really worked out.